EZ Crossover Shorting Out Layout

[kdgrant6]

I have a hybrid layout of EZ Track (Nickel-Silver) and flex track.  I have two Bachmann crossovers that have been in the layout nearly a year.  I operate the crossovers manually because it's easier to do so than to go through DCC commands. 
Ten days or so ago, I manually changed one crossover from divergent to straight, and the system shorted out.  I turned it back to divergent, and the system restarted.  That happened several times in a row, so I unplugged the layout, re-plugged it, and everything worked fine.   The next day, the same thing occurred, then it went downhill from there.  For a short time, I could physically adjust the crossover's position by pressing down on it and keep it from shorting.  But that changed, too.

Now, whenever locomotive wheels touch the frog, the system shorts.  This problems occurs only when the loco is traveling the main line.  If it is on the divergent rail, no short occurs.  Flipping the manual switch in either direction does not short the layout.

My guess is that the DCC decoder in the unit has malfunctioned, and it is not properly directing the current through the frog.

In the picture below, you can see the narrowness of the gap between the frog and the junction of the main and divergent rails on the right.  I have widened that gap slightly, but doing so did not change the problem.

The other crossover works well.  In it, the corresponding gap is slightly larger than one that is giving trouble.  With the widening of the gap, they are now about the same.

I've searched this forum and have done Google searches as well.  I've consulted two members of this forum, but have not been able to straighten out this problem.

The only solution may be removing the crossover and replacing it with a pair of large radius turnouts.

Any other ideas out there?  I welcome any advice that could help me resolve this problem.

Thanks.

[brokenrail]

Looks like the rails leading to the point in the frog are both touching the frog.Seems they should be insulated from touching each other since one would be positive the other neg.I have had a defect like this before.Push the rails off the point a little to keep them from touching each other .See if they move back a little.
Johnny

[kdgrant6]

Thanks, Johnny.

As I mentioned in the post, I have cut a space in both rails, but that action did not stop the shorting out. 

As for the spacing shown in the picture, I used this crossover for nearly a year and had no problems. 

As for moving the rail, there is no place for it to move.  It jams tightly against the rail joiners of the adjacent EZ track pieces.  I'm sure you experienced the difficulty of removing or even adjusting rail joiners that come with EZ track pieces.

If the rails have somehow shifted toward the frog over time, why does a short NOT occur when a locomotive wheels touch the frog when traversing the divergent rail?  It shorts only when a loco is on the main rail.

Thanks again.

[jward]

it sounds like you have a crossover where the frog is supposed to change polarity, but for some reason it isn't doing so. whatever switched the polarity has failed and as a result when the switch is thrown one way everything works fine, but when thrown the other way it shorts when wheels cross the gaps at the frog. at this point, probably your simplest solution would be to find the wire that powers the frog and disconnect it. unfortunately with ez track that would mean removing the crossover from the layout to do this surgery.

before you do that, do a spot checque of the frog with a multimeter. measure the voltage from the frog to one of the adjacent stock rails. you should get a reading between 12-18v from the frog to one stock rail, and around 0v to the other. throw the switch, and the readings should reverse themselves, the 0v stock rail should now read 12-18v, and vice versa. if the readings are unchanged from the original set, then your frog is not switching polarity when the crossover is thrown, and you will need to disconnect the wire powering it. if not, your problem lies elsewhere.

[kdgrant6]

Thanks, Jeffery.

Actually, I disconnected the crossover this afternoon.  In the process of this less-than-easy procedure, I have created another problem because of the feeder wires I had connected to the crossover.  Something in that area keeps shorting out the system.  I need to take time tomorrow to identify what's wrong.  Then I can put the meter on it to confirm what we probably already know--that something is wrong with the polarity for the main rail. 

To me, it seems that the decoder has "frozen" in the correct polarity position for the divergent rails because it remains the same no matter how I switch the manual tab on the crossover's side.

Since the DCC decoder controls the polarity switching and since the polarity doesn't switch, wouldn't the decoder (or maybe a crimped wire) probably be the culprit?

Wouldn't disconnecting the wire create a dead area in the crossover?

[jward]

you are right. disconnecting the wire will create a dead frog. but isn't that preferable to a shorted one?

you are also correct that if the decoder is switching the polarity, that it's not being done mechanically, the decoder would be the problem. or, the decoder output that controls the frog polarity is the problem. if only one output is bad, but everything else is operating normally, I would try to find a workaround like disconnecting that output. I don't know enough about the decoder equipped crossovers to say whether you should replace the decoder or how to go about it. I do not think there is a drop in replacement, though.

[kdgrant6]

Well, this problem may be resolved.  

I just spoke with Rodney at Bachmann.  

He said out-of=the-box Bachmann Crossovers have dead frogs.  There is an unconnected wire underneath that can be connected to power the frog if you're running a locomotive with a short wheel base.

He said that since the wire underneath mine is not connected, the problem with my crossover is most probably a decoder malfunction.  He said that apparently the crossover is stuck in the position that routs power for the divergent leg.

Does this make sense?  I still don't understand that if the frog is dead, why my locos short the system when their wheels touch the frog and the mainline.  If the loco straddles the frog, there's no problem either.

Although Rodney said that this is very unusual, I want to leave this thread as a help to anyone else running into a similar problem.

Maybe someone could offer an explanation here that will help someone else.

Thanks.

[jward]

if the frog is shorting when the loco wheels hit it, it is electrically connected somehow to one of the closure rails. if the wire connecting the decoder to the frog is not in fact connected, the decoder cannot be the problem. therefore, take a close look at that frog again. something has to be connecting it with one of the other rails. what you are describing shouldn't be happening with a dead frog.

[kdgrant6]

I wanted to answer Jeffery and close out this thread.

First, nothing I can see on the crossover can be causing the short.  As I mentioned, I cut a wider gap at the junction of the frog and the rails on the right.  Under magnification, the gap is apparent.  I thoroughly vacuumed the joint to remove any metal particles.  The problem crossover looks identical to the other crossover and to the other frog on the same crossover.  

As for the decoder not being able to cause a short, Bachmann's service technician Rodney said that the decoder was the likely culprit because it did control the routing of power through the frogs.

An earlier request was that I put a voltmeter to the piece.  By the time I attempted to do so, the system would short out each time I powered up.  I did find that if I placed a screwdriver handle under one end of the crossover, I could keep the layout powered.  However, immediately upon lowering the piece, the layout would short.  To me, that indicates problems other than just a wrongly-powered frog.  

Regarding the operation of the crossover with a screwdriver handle under one end, even if I kept the power on and pushed a loco across the frog in question, the system would short, but it would not short if I ran the loco across the divergent route instead of the main one.

(By the way, Bachmann EZ crossovers have frogs that can be powered.  I reported incorrectly that they were plastic.  Turnouts have plastic frogs, but crossovers have metal frogs that have an unattached wire on either end of the piece that can be attached in sockets underneath the unit if desired to power locos with short wheel bases across the frog.)  

In conclusion, I am done with EZ crossovers and turnouts (except for one that I need to leave in place to keep from doing major layout changes.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will behave.) I have removed both crossovers and both a left and right hand snap turnout--all EZ Track.  I have ordered Peco large radius turnouts as replacements for the crossovers and a medium radius (36") turnout for the snap track.  I will adjust existing track to accommodate differences.

I would strongly urge anyone considering DCC turnouts and crossovers to reconsider.  The primary reason I do so is not prompted by a lack of quality from Bachmann, but from inherent difficulties encountered when attempting to operate turnouts and crossovers from a DCC controller, whether from Bachmann or from others.  You simply have to push too many buttons to switch the points, and very frequently, those buttons, even when pressed correctly, don't do what you want them to do.  I find it much easier to operate wired turnouts.  The exception may be DCC controllers with screen interfaces that will allow touch screen interaction to move points.

I hope this thread will be of help.

[HoModeler]

I wanted to answer Jeffery and close out this thread.

First, nothing I can see on the crossover can be causing the short.  As I mentioned, I cut a wider gap at the junction of the frog and the rails on the right.  Under magnification, the gap is apparent.  I thoroughly vacuumed the joint to remove any metal particles.  The problem crossover looks identical to the other crossover and to the other frog on the same crossover.  

As for the decoder not being able to cause a short, Bachmann's service technician Rodney said that the decoder was the likely culprit because it did control the routing of power through the frogs.

An earlier request was that I put a voltmeter to the piece.  By the time I attempted to do so, the system would short out each time I powered up.  I did find that if I placed a screwdriver handle under one end of the crossover, I could keep the layout powered.  However, immediately upon lowering the piece, the layout would short.  To me, that indicates problems other than just a wrongly-powered frog.  

Regarding the operation of the crossover with a screwdriver handle under one end, even if I kept the power on and pushed a loco across the frog in question, the system would short, but it would not short if I ran the loco across the divergent route instead of the main one.

(By the way, Bachmann EZ crossovers have frogs that can be powered.  I reported incorrectly that they were plastic.  Turnouts have plastic frogs, but crossovers have metal frogs that have an unattached wire on either end of the piece that can be attached in sockets underneath the unit if desired to power locos with short wheel bases across the frog.)  

In conclusion, I am done with EZ crossovers and turnouts (except for one that I need to leave in place to keep from doing major layout changes.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will behave.) I have removed both crossovers and both a left and right hand snap turnout--all EZ Track.  I have ordered Peco large radius turnouts as replacements for the crossovers and a medium radius (36") turnout for the snap track.  I will adjust existing track to accommodate differences.

I would strongly urge anyone considering DCC turnouts and crossovers to reconsider.  The primary reason I do so is not prompted by a lack of quality from Bachmann, but from inherent difficulties encountered when attempting to operate turnouts and crossovers from a DCC controller, whether from Bachmann or from others.  You simply have to push too many buttons to switch the points, and very frequently, those buttons, even when pressed correctly, don't do what you want them to do.  I find it much easier to operate wired turnouts.  The exception may be DCC controllers with screen interfaces that will allow touch screen interaction to move points.

I hope this thread will be of help.

I think your wrong on your statements of crossovers...I use a different product for my Track on my layout & my layout is Full DCC with 2 Throttles...Witch is 17ft long x 6ft wide I have 16 crossovers on my layout & are all hooked up to an Air System... All's I do is throw an Air Switch & my Crossovers Throw nicely & snap firmly into place... All my crossovers have track power wire lead's on Both Sides of my Crossovers so no matter witch way I throw the switch I have constant power on my Layout with NO shorts or loss of Loco power... My Crossovers work fine as long as a few KEY Issues are maintained...#1 crossover contacts are clean & making solid contact with the Rail's...#2 Making sure you use the proper crossovers there's a few different kinds "Brands" on the market & serve different rolls for what you are trying to obtain on your layout...You might need a Power Booster on your Layout  as well... For example I started out with the Standard DCC Starter Pack witch is a 3 AMP system & was fine for me "For a wile" but when I expanded my Yard Area from 6 to 9 Tracks in Fall of 2015 & obtained a few more Locos "1 being a SW-1 Yard switcher" & my other Locos sitting on sidings IDLEING... The Org 3 AMP system would not work any longer So I had to upgrade my Layout to a 5 AMP system... So keep in mind providing Track Power & ample AMPS to your hole layout is also KEY to proper operating sessions on your layout.... You must still be doing something wrong with your crossovers I know it can be mind twisting at times but in this Hobby it's trial & error...

[kdgrant6]

HoModeler, thanks for your suggestions.

Of course, one of the first things I did was check all the obvious things, which you mention.  All of those were fine, which was why I posted this thread.  It's not a power issue, either, which should be fairly obvious from previous comments on this thread. 

As for your layout, I'm glad the 16 DCC turnouts work for you, but if you're using an "air system" to operate your turnouts, then you're not using the DCC function of the turnouts unless you have some sort of interface installed, which you don't mention. Neither do you mention which DCC controller you're using. 

I can tell you that with either Bachmann or NCE, changing points is a hassle because doing so requires several buttons to be pressed before the points turn. 
What DCC system are you using?  Since you say you're operating a turnout by pressing a button that engages the Air System, what button on your DCC controller are you pressing? 

If you're pressing a button or flipping a toggle on your control panel, then you're not really operating the turnouts in DCC mode unless you're using an interface. 

If so, what interface do you have?

I did refer to an interface possibility as a possible exception on my last post.  If you really do have an answer, I--and others--would like to know the details. 

[HoModeler]

HoModeler, thanks for your suggestions.

Of course, one of the first things I did was check all the obvious things, which you mention.  All of those were fine, which was why I posted this thread.  It's not a power issue, either, which should be fairly obvious from previous comments on this thread.  

As for your layout, I'm glad the 16 DCC turnouts work for you, but if you're using an "air system" to operate your turnouts, then you're not using the DCC function of the turnouts unless you have some sort of interface installed, which you don't mention. Neither do you mention which DCC controller you're using.  

I can tell you that with either Bachmann or NCE, changing points is a hassle because doing so requires several buttons to be pressed before the points turn.  
What DCC system are you using?  Since you say you're operating a turnout by pressing a button that engages the Air System, what button on your DCC controller are you pressing?  

If you're pressing a button or flipping a toggle on your control panel, then you're not really operating the turnouts in DCC mode unless you're using an interface.  

If so, what interface do you have?

I did refer to an interface possibility as a possible exception on my last post.  If you really do have an answer, I--and others--would like to know the details.  

Hello KD Grant.... Thanks for the inquiry & will be happy to answer your questions better
#1. Run Full NCE DCC with 2 hand held throttles or "Cab's" in 2 different parts of my Layout 1 in the yard area "For the yardmaster" & one for the mainline areas of the layout...

#2. I do not push any buttons to activate the switches on my NCE Cab's

#3. My Air System consists of a compressor supplying 60 PSI in main tank stepped down @ a regulator to the Layout... I have over 28 switch motors "witch are nothing more than a copper tube soldered on both ends with copper caps & a spring inside with 2 little rubber gaskets with a in & out nipple to connect the surgical tubing".. installed under layout with a copper rod attached to the switch end & hooked up to the switch motor attached to that on my layout face board is a toggle air switch with in & out ports for the tubing... When I throw the toggle air actuates the switch motor compressing the spring inside & that is what makes my crossover move when I throw the toggle back to normal the air purges & the spring goes back to normal from being compressed when it was thrown.... The system was handed down to me by my grandfather...

4. I have Pictures of the my Air system if anyone is interested in seeing them I'd be gald to e-mail or picture text via cell phone to anyone that is interested...

[jbrock27]

I still don't see where or how, you are providing any insight, assistance or any relevant information here "HO"

And you seem familiar...Have you posted here before, but under a different User Name by chance and for some reason?

And I disagree w/you; this hobby is not about "trial and error".  Trying things, yes certainly, but the more research and planning you do beforehand, seriously cuts down on the amount of errors and time consumed by correcting errors and leaves more time for enjoying and running trains.

[HoModeler]

I still don't see where or how, you are providing any insight, assistance or any relevant information here "HO"

And you seem familiar...Have you posted here before, but under a different User Name by chance and for some reason?

And I disagree w/you; this hobby is not about "trial and error".  Trying things, yes certainly, but the more research and planning you do beforehand, seriously cuts down on the amount of errors and time consumed by correcting errors and leaves more time for enjoying and running trains.

Yes JB I been on the forums for a wile now I was maintrackbrian before but I forgot all my login information since I had my laptop serviced & updated to windows 10... But just forget about I.... if I was not making any sence or insight to the subject I am sorry...

[jbrock27]

I think you mean, Trainmanbrian, no?

How do you like Windows 10 compared to 8?