Adding LED lights to older Bachmann plus dc locomotives Issue

[jbrock27]

No, it shouldn't make a lot of noise if the ends of the brushes are flat to start with.
Len

Thanks for the suggestions Len, but no, the brushes have the curved ends like they are supposed to and fit well on the commutator.  They also have plenty of "meat" on them, so they are not worn to nothing.  (I frankly don't know how they would even work if the commutator ends were flat.)

Been down most of this road prior:

disconnect the drive shafts
Len

...done that, the only noise is the motor running and it's not much noise.  And very little vibration when running.

armature shaft bearings and make sure they weren't worn...shaft to develop a minute wobble...armature shaft itself can be very slightly bent.
Len

...nope, all good

loud noises
Len

Let me just clarify if I may, and this is the difficulty that can be had when trying to describe the types and volume of noises; it is not what I would categorize as "loud".  When I say "coffee grinder", I mean in type of noise but not in volume.  It is just enough noise to be annoying bc it is alot more noise than silent, if you get my drift.  No problems with the drive-line, everything runs true.  Even trimmed the brush springs a little.  I have many other motors of the same type that are A LOT quieter.  Added weight to the shell even but it makes the same noise with the shell off, just at a lesser decibel level.  It really has me puzzled.  Trust me, if it was simple, I would have figured it out and would not be writing about it at this point.

[Len]

Is there any arc pitting or burrs on the commutator segments? From what your saying, it's about the only thing left I can think to look for.

Len

[electrical whiz kid]

Len;
Yes, that is true. 
Arcing would be obvious if a line of sight is available.  If things are running hot-as in brushes worn down, there could be some smoking as well as excessive arcing.  This would be characteristic of all series wound motors.  If the brushes aren't conformed to the commutator, then you can have a poor connection, resulting in high resistance.
You are also right about disconnecting the motor from the drive train.  Motors shouldn't have more than a slight somewhat high-pitched hum to them.  If there is growling, then my guess it would be brushes/commutator are either misaligned or worn.
At tech school, Chanute AFB, they taught us to "isolate, locate, and eradicate".

Rich C.

[jbrock27]

Is there any arc pitting or burrs on the commutator segments?
Len

I knew you would ask me that and forgot to include that info above, I got to so much typing.  No, none.  And when I first got this loco, indeed 2nd hand so I don't know it's history and certainly can't ask it (by the looks of the brushes, motor, etc.  looks like it was hardly if, ever, run, so doubt strongly it was ever dropped or abused and nothing upon complete dis-assembly pointed to that) I polished the commutator, so no burrs. I even put in enough thrust washers to clean up the amount of front to back "play" it had, it has some play now, about the width of 1 and a half thrust washers, maybe even less than that.

If things are running hot
Rich C.

Nope, they are not.

brushes worn down
Rich C.

Nope, see above, they are like brand new.

the brushes aren't conformed to the commutator...brushes/commutator are either misaligned or worn.
Rich C.

They are, perfectly and they are neither misaligned or worn.

isolate, locate, and eradicate".
Rich C.

Rich, can't tell you how many times I have already done that.  This is not my first rodeo with these.

Keep in mind, it makes less noise in one direction than the other.

Barring all else and given my thought that this thing was hardly ever run, is it possible there has not been ENOUGH run time and therefore wear of the brushes at the point where they meet the commutator and over time, with running, it will quiet them because there is something about the graphite surface of the brushes that makes them nosier when new?  This is pretty much with what I am left with thinking.  All I have done is let the motor run for several minutes in each direction at different speed and run it back and forth on a test track. I would say at most, an hours worth of run time.

[electrical whiz kid]

Jim;
You nailed it.  "when the brushes are new"!   Nothing 'brand new' is going to be a perfect fit; hence the run-in time in which the brushes conform to the "run-out' of the commutator.

As far as more noise in one or the other direction, this can be attributable to uneven deposits of worn graphite in the segment splits, or anything so miniscule as such, that it makes no difference.  To my way of thinking, you will have it good once everything wears in.  This is why, in a previous post, I mentioned turning the rotor by hand when this modification  is first done.  They are tiny and delicate. 
Thrust washers are a good idea, as that reversing motion has a tendency to move the rotor fore and aft, maybe causing premature wear in the process.

Rich c .
.

[jbrock27]

Okey doke, I will see if it quiets down any after some considerable run time. 
Just for ghits and siggles, I had disconnected the fore and aft drive parts again and ran it on the track (w/o it going anywhere) both in forward and reverse, several more minutes at 30% power each direction and while it runs smooth in both directions, it does make a slight more noise in reverse.

[electrical whiz kid]

yep;  That would probably occur, Jim, as 'forward' is the predominant direction, wear patterns would occur in it's favour, and reverse would tend to 'fight' it, thus the noise.  one sure way of checking things out is to measure either current or watts.  A neat trick I learned from an old salt (when I was young...) is to take a section of an empty toilet paper roll about an inch or so long, do ten wraps of wire around it, secure it with a piece of tape and hook up one end to the load, and the other to the source.  What this setup does is to 'amplify' the current reading on an amprobe X ten; and I am sure that it would do the same with an ammeter with too high of a reading.  Thus a reading of 5 amps would actually be .5 amps.  This has worked for me many times, either AC or DC.

Rich C.   

[jbrock27]

as 'forward' is the predominant direction, wear patterns would occur in it's favour, and reverse would tend to 'fight' it, thus the noise.
Rich C.

I understand what you saying, but still don't understand why that would be the case as the curvature of the commutator is the same, whether it is spinning clockwise or counter clockwise (forward or reverse) and it is still spinning against both brushes when running in either forward or reverse, so why noise in only one direction?

[electrical whiz kid]

Jim;
When the commutator revolves in one direction more or less all the time, a certain amount of "wear in", minute deposits along one side of each segment, accumulated crud, etc. will occur, causing mechanical resistance to that reversing direction.  I think it works along the same lines as if all you made were right-hand turns in your car, wear patterns on the tires would indicate some unusual occurrence along the same lines here.  It is just my thought, for what it is worth.

Rich C.

[jbrock27]

A good example Rich!

[brokenrail]

the setup is very similar to an athearn motor.

In concept and operation, yes absofruitly.  But I have never taken a Bachmann can motor apart and have not witnessed anyone being able to do that either.  Different story with the other brand you mentioned.  Makes for maintenance and/or repair possible and easier, particularly if something like, brushes, armature, motor housing need replacing.

Rich, I wish you well and luck in your endeavor to have such a lively discussion here, however unlikely given our hosts lack of employ of those kinds of motors and therefore, lack of tolerance for such discussions.

They come apart quite easy by just straightening out the can/housing pinch.The hard part for me was the flywheels are tough to remove, anyhow without a puller ,but a vice lined with rubber to hold the flywheel and a good punch on the end of the motor shaft does the trick.

[jbrock27]

So what reason did you have to pull one apart?

[brokenrail]

 gp 30 or 35 motors they had some noise in them running, and  when you spin by hand, also I found the brushes were stuck in.Springs came out and looked ok. Found out Bachmann does not sell replacement brushes or springs,,Had one of there 70 toner can motor aprart for the same reason ,found that one uses a epoxy to hold the magnets in ,but it did not hold and the magnet dropped hitting the armature.That was a easy fix even if you lose a spring.They look like they use the springs that Are OFF kadees or the ez mate couple rs
Johnny Adam.

[jbrock27]

Thanks for responding.  I have a somewhat noisy Plus GP35 that brought me to this Board for a solution some time ago.  And thanks for confirming a question I had a few weeks ago-whether Bachmann sold replacement springs and brushes.
So I follow you, in the end, did you have success with what you were trying to accomplish?

[brokenrail]

Some success on those that did not have distorted brush housings.They were clean and not distorted from heat,but it would seem they were pressed in there housings crook-id. They all had very strong magnets for there size.