Walthers Loco Doesn't Like Bachmann Turnouts

[Joe Satnik]

Dave,

Great troubleshooting tips and explanations. (Paper under the wheels on one side of the truck.)

I'm so used to using an Ohm-meter, I can't think of ways to troubleshoot without one.

Thanks.

Keesu,

Follow Dave's latest "paper" troubleshooting tips to the letter. 

These will help you find your loco's bad pick-ups rather quickly.

Turnout theory and troubleshooting:   

Crossovers are made up of 2 turnouts, and have 2 frogs, 2 wires and 2 terminal posts (blades?). 

Make sure that the left frog's wire isn't plugged into the right turnout's terminal post, etc.

The turnouts have a built-in electrical switch (moved by rack-and-pinion gears, IIRC)

that energizes the terminal post (blade) under the turnout for the frog wire to plug into. 

None of the 4 rails that approach the frog should be touching the metal frog,

so when the frog wire is disconnected, the frog should be

"electrically isolated" (not have a connection to anything).

When working properly, the built-in-switch should connect (energize) 

the terminal post (blade) in the following manner:

Route Selected:                  Left                    Right

Blade connected to:  Right Stock Rail        Left Stock Rail

The stock rails are the two outer-most and longest rails of the turnout.

A common failure mode of the EZ-Track turnouts is to have the rack-and-pinion gears jump a tooth.

When that happens, the blade will always be connected to one stock rail, and never the other. 

In that case, one route will work correctly, the other will cause an electrical short.

The cure is to open up the turnout and put the gear teeth back to where they belong. 

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[DAVE2744]

Joe - I nave never seen a EZ switch from B'mann, but your explanation is perfectly clear,  great documentation, Dave

[jbrock27]

Keith, here's a video demonstration of using a meter on the Ohm's (resistance) setting to check the wheels on a Bachmann S4 (in addition to having some other info you may not need).  Even though your Walther's Proto F3 may not have wipers, the principle is the same.  Good luck, I hope this helps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7uV239HwXQ

[keesu]

Keith, do you have the ability to temporarily switch the loco to run on DC, run it, and see if it behaves the same way?  That may help narrow down where the problem is.

If you search the forum, you should find info on what that wire does.

No, I don't think I can.  It looks as if that little wire does provide power to the frog, but I still can't figure out what affect that has other than causing, at times, locos to stall unless I disconnect it.  The Walthers loco that started this discussion struggles over turnouts even with the wire unplugged.

[keesu]

Hello again Keesu, I'm not familiar with the type of switches you have.  If the frog of the switch is metal, my guess is that the wire is used for power routing ( frog takes on correct ( same ) power as the moveable point rail that is aligned with the frog). I'm surprised ( ha ha ) that there was no documentation in the packaging on how to use that wire. 
Even though you have a situation with the switch, I think you still have a problem with the loco.  The wheelbase is long enough that the other set of trucks, the one not on the frog, should have been supplying the alternate route for power to loco. Test your loco by putting a very thin piece of paper under both wheels on one side of a truck.  You should not have any interruption in power.  Repeat for all four sides. If you do lose power, the truck wheels at the other end of the loco, same side,  is not passing electricity, ( poor pickup from wheels, bad wire connection at truck, bad wire connection at pc board ). Just think of all the new knowledge you will have gained when you work through all this.  It will be rewarding,  Dave

Dave,

I use Bachmann EZ Track DCC turnouts.

I placed paper under the wheels exactly as you suggested, but the loco didn't lose power.  And my other locos don't lose power--ever--when going over the Bachmann turnouts; only the Walthers loco does, but it never cuts out on any other section of track. 

Thanks for the suggestions and, yes, I do view this as a learning opportunity;)

Keith

[jbrock27]

Thanks for your reply Keith, but I am surprised bc many DCC installed/equipped locos, provide the option to switch back and forth between running on DC and DCC.

Was this loco bought new?

[Jerrys HO]

Keith, do you have the ability to temporarily switch the loco to run on DC, run it, and see if it behaves the same way?  That may help narrow down where the problem is.

If you search the forum, you should find info on what that wire does.

No, I don't think I can.  It looks as if that little wire does provide power to the frog, but I still can't figure out what affect that has other than causing, at times, locos to stall unless I disconnect it.  The Walthers loco that started this discussion struggles over turnouts even with the wire unplugged.

If you read the turnout packaging it states not to use the black wire to power the frog when running DCC. Had to remove all mine.

[keesu]

Thanks for your reply Keith, but I am surprised bc many DCC installed/equipped locos, provide the option to switch back and forth between running on DC and DCC.

Was this loco bought new?

Hi, J

Sorry for the confusion.  Yes, I bought loco new and I can switch to DC, but that's a moot point now that I have returned the loco for a refund.  I really do appreciate your help, though.  Thanks.

Keith

[keesu]

If you read the turnout packaging it states not to use the black wire to power the frog when running DCC. Had to remove all mine.
[/quote]

Hi, Jerry

I read every word of the paperwork that comes with the turnouts and found nothing about the black wire.  I then turned over one of the turnouts and found the answer printed right there on the bottom!  It reads:  "Metal frog power connection:  To power the metal frog, make the one-wire power connection.  Please note that this power connection is not possible with plastic frogs, and that it only facilities smoother operations of locomotives with shorter wheelbases.  The turnout itself will operate correctly whether or not the frog is powered."

After all this time, the mystery is solved...except for the fact that connecting the frog didn't really help with the Walthers loco.  In fact, it wreaked havoc with my other locos, which have a longer wheel base.  Even if the F3 had worked with the frogs plugged in, I would have had to unplug them to run other locos. 

As I said in a previous post, I've returned the Walthers loco and ordered an Athearn F3.  If that one doesn't work, then I'll have to abandon Bachmann turnouts altogether.

Kudos to Model Train Stuff (MB Klein) for allowing me to return two different locos. 

Thanks again.

Keith

[Jerrys HO]

Keesu,
This is straight from the pakage....

Powering the Frog
Recommended for analog operation ONLY. NOT recommended for DCC operation
as a short circuit may occur when operating in DCC that could damage your locomotive.

This can be found in the part's service and instructions section under HO.

[Joe Satnik]

Dear All,

I'm not sure of the difference of  DC vs. DCC (an AC-like signal).

A quick short could occur if the wheels are too wide and the wheel coming off the frog

touches both the stub rails, which are close to one another just after the frog.

It may be that a quick short occurs on DC too, but the momentum of the train just carries it through. 

A quick short might be enough to "mess-up" a DCC command, or blow a quick acting DCC breaker.

The only other possibility is inductive or capacitive coupling of the signal is somehow

increased with the frog attached, which is a bit of a stretch,

as the signal frequencies are not that high.

Hope this doesn't confuse.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[keesu]

Keesu,
This is straight from the pakage....

Powering the Frog
Recommended for analog operation ONLY. NOT recommended for DCC operation
as a short circuit may occur when operating in DCC that could damage your locomotive.

This can be found in the part's service and instructions section under HO.

Hi,

I think there's a little more confusion here.  It looks as if you're referring to the regular analog turnouts.  I'm using DCC turnouts, which are, of course, designed for DCC operation.  I tried to upload a picture of the turnout packaging, but I kept getting a message saying the upload folder is full, whatever that means. 

Keith

Keith

[Jerrys HO]

Kieth,
If you are talking about the one's with the decoder installed then yes we were on different wave length's  .
The other one is accompanied with the switch controller with green wiring harness, which can be used for dc or dcc operation. This is the one I am familiar with. I powered my frogs as I went along with no shorting issues but when I went to the yard the shorting occurred, since then I removed the wire from the frog in all yard turnout's. I run DCC.

Jerry

[keesu]

Kieth,
If you are talking about the one's with the decoder installed then yes we were on different wave length's  .
The other one is accompanied with the switch controller with green wiring harness, which can be used for dc or dcc operation. This is the one I am familiar with. I powered my frogs as I went along with no shorting issues but when I went to the yard the shorting occurred, since then I removed the wire from the frog in all yard turnout's. I run DCC.

Jerry

Right, Jerry, I'm using the ones with decoders installed. I've learned never to plug in those little wires!

Keith

[keesu]

Hello, Folks

I thought I'd bring this discussion to its resolution by saying that I received my new Athearn Santa Fe F3 A/B set today and things went as I had hoped:  I ran it numerous times, backwards and forwards at various speeds over every Bachmann DCC turnout, and the little baby met every challenge without a hitch.  It even sounds much better than the Walthers loco. 

Thanks to all of you for your help.

Keith