Alco s2 motor noise help

[ALCO0001]

Hello Everyone,
I replaced the motor myself per Bachmann warranty.The stated the reason for the motor failures /excessive noise grinding hooting ect.. was using

my MRC 9500 transformer when I run it in DC.I have the ability to switch from dcc to dc on the layout with a switch for someone that wants to run dc

it is there.Never had any problems with anything it has been proven.Anyway they (Rodney) stated the MRC 9500 was a pulse type transformer

that was discontinued because this was not disclosed to the buyers .I removed it ,installed the new motor in the s2 and ran it about 2 hours at

different speeds and directions.Note the s2 was completely gone through gear cases ,everything.including all new soft Flexible  wiring.

The motor runs smooth and silent until it gets to notch 6 and 7 where it makes a hooting type of sound Loud that overcomes the sound at max

Either direction Sometimes only one direction ,but always at notch 6 and 7 !Even stranger it goes away and is silent at notch 8 .Take it to NOTCH

5 silent. I reset the decoder, activated the speed tables and basically that just changed the notch the noise occurred.
Another thing to mention is that when the hooting noise occurs it  also sounds like at the same time there is a static type bacon frying noise.The motor bearings were checked and lubed before install.Any Ideas?
Not so much fun any more.
Jack

[jbrock27]

A lot of Pulses and minuses, going around today   Time to break out the oscilloscope, LOL!

Sorry Jack, I'm really not making fun at your plight, it's kind of an inside joke

[Len]

Jack,

I think someone was blowing smoke about the MRC 9500 being the problem. At the LHS where my repair shop was located, we ran N, HO, and G display layouts with MRC 9500's for years, from 10am until 9pm six days a week, with no problems except gears and motor brushes wearing out.

Len

[trainmainbrian]

Hello Everyone,
I replaced the motor myself per Bachmann warranty.The stated the reason for the motor failures /excessive noise grinding hooting ect.. was using

my MRC 9500 transformer when I run it in DC.I have the ability to switch from dcc to dc on the layout with a switch for someone that wants to run dc

it is there.Never had any problems with anything it has been proven.Anyway they (Rodney) stated the MRC 9500 was a pulse type transformer

that was discontinued because this was not disclosed to the buyers .I removed it ,installed the new motor in the s2 and ran it about 2 hours at

different speeds and directions.Note the s2 was completely gone through gear cases ,everything.including all new soft Flexible  wiring.

The motor runs smooth and silent until it gets to notch 6 and 7 where it makes a hooting type of sound Loud that overcomes the sound at max

Either direction Sometimes only one direction ,but always at notch 6 and 7 !Even stranger it goes away and is silent at notch 8 .Take it to NOTCH

5 silent. I reset the decoder, activated the speed tables and basically that just changed the notch the noise occurred.
Another thing to mention is that when the hooting noise occurs it  also sounds like at the same time there is a static type bacon frying noise.The motor bearings were checked and lubed before install.Any Ideas?
Not so much fun any more.
Jack

[/quote
Question Why are you switching from DCC to DC... I don't understand why a lot of you guys want to still Run DC on your Layout's... I understand its a cost issue with most guy's... I run DCC on my Layout & hardly ever experience ANY ISSUES & would not have it any other way... I buy all my Loco's DCC Ready & have Sound installed I use a Brand I can't say hear... DCC is so simple with the Advancements DCC has made over the year's... I think that's part of WHY your loco's are having issues case your switching back & forth... I f I was you I'd run one system of your choice & be done with it...

[ALCO0001]

Trainbrain,
The point is of the matter is THIS loco is engineered to run on dc as well as dcc .Many can do this now with the technology they have and unlike the

old days they WOULD NOT RUN SO GOOD ON DC now that is different with the processors they are using .The issue of frying motor is being past off

to A customer stated using a controller that has a pulse system damages the electronics witch they do state in there literature ,but they also state

that mrc stopped making the 9500 because they did not say it was a pulse type of transformer when it really was. I have herd unless you get the

right decoder specially designed  for a 3 pole motor that it will damage the decoder eventually.I was wonder if this is my case here ? The motor in the s2 s4 new 70 toner use this 3 pole can motor .Noticed that the sound on this one comparing to the s4 after doing a factory reset is low on all sounds except the bell Maybe the board is the problem?

[Len]

The MRC 9500 was clearly advertised as having "Proportional Tracking Control", which is Marketing Speak for Pulse Width Modulation, which is different than pulse spikes.

The whole discussion on the difference is over in http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,28242.0.html so I'm not going to repeat it here.

And the 3 amp 30 watt 9500 was discontinued because G-gaugers wanted more power. So it was replaced the Throttle Pack 9950. This is from the description of the 9950 (emphasis added):

MRC has created a power pack that will combine the best features of our old Controlmaster 20 and our MRC Tech 3 9500. This high power unit pack offers a power rating of 125 watts (vs. CM 20 of 100 watts and 9500 of 30 watts). But unlike the CM 20 this new pack is also equipped with backlit LCD screen to provide the voltage and current output while it is in operation. The new 9950 will also offer momentum capability and a voltage booster switch so it is perfect for operating large G gauge layouts. The 9950 will also offer an optional walkaround control as well.

Len

[electrical whiz kid]

If the [problem] was directly the Xformer, then this would occur with every similar load using [it] as a power supply.  Look to the motor; more specifically, how you installed it.  Also, as Brock suggested, using an oscilloscope, if handy, wouldn't be a bad idea...  IF you know how to use it.
One thing I will say-probably starting a fist fight in the process-is that way too many people either don't know electrical theory, or know enough to be dangerous.  I have run across this scene in both this hobby and in my trade; unfortunately in the latter, usually after someone had caused a lot of destruction in the process of "doing it themselves".
There are several motor causes I can think of, without either assuming, or being there to look at it.  And that is as far as I will go here.
My suggestion is that, if you do not know how to effectively trouble-shoot anything electrical, then find someone who can, and will.  This is starting to sound a little like going rabbit hunting with a howitzer.
SGT C.

[ALCO0001]

If the [problem] was directly the Xformer, then this would occur with every similar load using [it] as a power supply.  Look to the motor; more specifically, how you installed it.  Also, as Brock suggested, using an oscilloscope, if handy, wouldn't be a bad idea...  IF you know how to use it.
One thing I will say-probably starting a fist fight in the process-is that way too many people either don't know electrical theory, or know enough to be dangerous.  I have run across this scene in both this hobby and in my trade; unfortunately in the latter, usually after someone had caused a lot of destruction in the process of "doing it themselves".
There are several motor causes I can think of, without either assuming, or being there to look at it.  And that is as far as I will go here.
My suggestion is that, if you do not know how to effectively trouble-shoot anything electrical, then find someone who can, and will.  This is starting to sound a little like going rabbit hunting with a howitzer.
SGT C.
[/quote YES Knowing electrical theories ,pulse width modulation,buss communication systems,can buss communication,Old live sun oscilloscopes,junk digital oscilloscopes,ohms law,measuring voltage drops,Diagnose and repair power train control systems with or without the proper tools is second nature when you survive the business in witch many mechanics in the automotive industry did not in tune with the advancements in technology that came along since the carburetor was no more .Obvious THAT there tech Rod does not have half as much as this so he comes up with a line of  whatever to cover up the fact he does not know anything BUT the easy way out. Did not take the time to listen and maybe learn of the facts to really find out the right solution rather then jump to a conclusion before all the facts are in dealing what could be the control causing the load to fail or the opposite.Rather he finds something else to point the finger at .He even stated all motors make noise .Really?  So they make a sound diesel with limited volume that the motor sound over rides after a few hours of running and ahh 3rd time now itis something else rather then just a bad design with the half inch flywheels hanging on the ends of the motor shaft trashing the bearings or the 5/16 flywheels not carrying enough momentum to keep the junk 3 pole motor from overheating and letting loose the adhesive that holds the magnets in place in the housing then the armature hits them a little heats up more now then just self destructs.How is this effecting the drivers on the board that control the motor?2 Sseries ALCOs pulled together and both self destructed a few times already.They just go to the shop and get fixed so they can do it again in a different way .

[ALCO0001]

At one time I had a pair of proto 1000 f3'S and there motors made the same hooting noise every time they traveled  downgrade with around 15 freight car load pushing them.Seems like the load was fighting a constant mag field in the motors creating the noise and this was running dc.I did not have time to fool with them back then ,but with the Bachmann s2 &s4 there is no load forced upon them when this noise occurs.All drive lines are free as you can get ,no binding either direction that leaves only the motor or what controls it ,or what controls the controls
Jack

[jbrock27]

as Brock suggested, using an oscilloscope, if handy, wouldn't be a bad idea...

Actually Sarge, I was not making the recommendation to use an oscilloscope.  I was actually poking fun at an internet dude name "Glen" who does use one on the MRC 1370.  Long story.  Len can fill you in....

Jack, I like P1Ks.  What did you do with those F3s?

[electrical whiz kid]

There was a guy named Nigel on the Atlas forum of about a dozen or so years back who was about as astute on this subject as anyone I had ever met.  In actually, it might behoove you to do some leg work and find him.  I think he can help.  Also, I believe Hunt may know him as well.
SGT C.

[Joe Satnik]

Dear All,

If he is the same Nigel as on this board (N&W fan), he has not posted here since the end of 2012. 

If you are keeping score, he has 31 patents issued to his name...

He was incredibly knowledgable and helpful here, in addition to being a terrific modeler. 

Don't know if the e-mail addy in his profile is current or not...  

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[Hunt]

An aside --

There was a guy named Nigel on the Atlas forum of about a dozen or so years back who was about as astute on this subject as anyone I had ever met.  In actually, it might behoove you to do some leg work and find him.  I think he can help.  Also, I believe Hunt may know him as well.
SGT C.

electrical whiz kid, your post was called to my attention.

I very rarely read the old company sponsored Atlas forum. For info about Atlas products I contact appropriate folks in Atlas. However, like Joe Satnik, recognize the Nigel who posted on this forum. Have not had any contact from him in years.

While I have helped ALCO0001 (Jack) with several of his issues and have some technical info I decided to leave this one between appropriate folks in Bachmann and him.

[jbrock27]

More friends, in more high places...

[ALCO0001]

as Brock suggested, using an oscilloscope, if handy, wouldn't be a bad idea...

Actually Sarge, I was not making the recommendation to use an oscilloscope.  I was actually poking fun at an internet dude name "Glen" who does use one on the MRC 1370.  Long story.  Len can fill you in....

Jack, I like P1Ks.  What did you do with those F3s?

I recall those p1k's were off the first run right when they came out and because of the issue they had with the noise I traded them back in to the local trainstore (long gone) where I purchased them both .They were UP's different road numbers.I regret that real bad when I see what they go for now .They had some excellent grill work .Hard to find now.If I knew then what I know now .I would have kept them all some how.