The Ames' "Super Socket": A BAD decision for Bachmann!!

[zubi]

Dear Curmee,

Do you know who fought that original proposal to a standstill?

No, I do not. I lost my interest in this issue long before it has reached that stage.

In fact, I see no 'standstil', in all practical terms that original proposal is a manufacturer's reference standard now (which also implies that I have to buy one and the same engine type in two scales...) I solved the problem by only acquiring live steamers in non-standard scales;-) - my entire collection of electric locos is 1:22.5. This strategy will probably protect me from having to acquire and pay for super sockets, (feel the) noise making devices etc. - or will they also be incorporated in the rolling stock I pull with my live steamers?

Do you know who was in charge of that WG?

Of course? Why ask? Please enlighten me if I am missing something (per personal email if advisable) Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi

[Perry Ottoman]

Remember what happened to IBM with there Micro channel bus.... Get too proprierty and expensive and you'll get burnt.

[Dennis Paulson]

The cost of a product has a lot to do with how many are sold .
In large scale wouldn't a standard screw terminal , be the best place to start , and everybodys favorite method to control the trains , be made to connect to the  screw terminal and go on from there .
  Having 44 years experience in electrical/electronic  maintaince in the military and power industry , I know that screw terminals  work best for maintaince and trouble shooting for years following a new purchase .
I know that many many times a plug is a connection waiting to fail .
And we all know that our large scale trains work perfectly out of the box for years and years , don't we ? 

Please keep it KISS [ keep it simple stupid ]   

Thanks

[Bruce Chandler]

I encourage everyone to read the post at http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48900

Also, please read about the proposed socket at http://www.tttrains.com/largescale/Topic%200707092%20Large%20Scale%20Plug-socket.pdf

I am deeply disturbed that a socket has already been designed.  Not that I'm against sockets, but Stan has recently stated that that he is still gathering requirements.   I'm not sure how many of you are involved in project planning or design, but I have NEVER heard of someone coming up with a successful design before the requirements are defined.

This is just bizarre.

[Cascade Northern]

The "Ames Socket" is a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very BAD idea.  ( Sorry, had to get my point across )

Hey Bachmann, here is a very easy thing to do with the "Ames Socket", cross it out, like so "Ames Socket".

If I every buy an engine that has an Ames style socket, the first thing I will do is rip it out, smash it up, and send it back in pieces!

[altterrain]

The "Ames Socket" is a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very BAD idea.  ( Sorry, had to get my point across )

Hey Bachmann, here is a very easy thing to do with the "Ames Socket", cross it out, like so "Ames Socket".

If I every buy an engine that has an Ames style socket, the first thing I will do is rip it out, smash it up, and send it back in pieces!

Better yet, just refuse to buy anything equipped with the Ames socket.

-Brian

[Jim Banner]

A third possibility, one which I think most of us will end up choosing, is to buy it and try it.  I am sure there will be enough manufacturers who will use the standard that we can easily install R/C, DCC, battery power, sound, and so forth.  If we have legacy products that we want to reuse, we can still use wiring harnesses and screwdrivers.  Knowing which pin is which, or even better, which wiring harness colour is which, will make installing that legacy equipment easier than ever.  Manufacturers who choose not to redesign their boards to fit the standard socket will always have the option of supplying wiring harnesses along with their boards.  And as a sideline, can supply the same wiring harnesses to legacy users.

What will this plug-and-play approach do to people like TOC who make a living installing radio control?  Probably less than they fear.  There are lots of people out there who are unwilling to install their own upgrades in their home computers, even though a little screw driver twirling and simple plugging in and out are all that are required.  They would rather spend the time and money to have it done professionally.  I am guessing it will be the same with plug-and-play in large scale as well.  I know it is in small scales, where people are willing to pay me to install plug-and-play decoders for them.

The one change that plug-and-play will probably bring about with any installation involving batteries will be either the replacement of sealed lead-acid technology with other technologies or the physical isolation and venting of the batteries.  Gelled electrolyte batteries may be called "sealed" but they are not.  They have vents and vent gases when charged, particularly when over charged.  I suspect this is the reason why tin plated contacts work well enough with DCC but not, apparently, with radio control and battery. The solution with these batteries is to install them in a separate, ventilated compartment and/or remove them altogether when charging them.  Using alternate battery technologies will require more sophisticated control of charging and discharge, which is another opportunity for an R/C manufacturer.  To accommodate all technologies, gold plated pins in both plugs and sockets are the only way to go.  And if the user insists on unventilated lead-acid batteries, a shot of silicone dielectric oil or grease does wonders on gold plated pins.

I think some version of the Stanley Super Socket will come about, and good, bad or indifferent, will be useful to those who want to use it.  I for one would keep on buying Bachmann large scale even if the socket were very²⁴ bad, but I hope instead it will be very²⁴ good.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm going to use one of Stanley's favorite ploys here.
"What will this plug-and-play approach do to people like TOC who make a living installing radio control?"

Doesn't matter.
You folks still don't get it.

I have the capability to rip the garbage out and fix it.
The average LS consumer probably will not.

Rather than fighting for the 6% (a number posted this week, not by me) of LS outdoor dcc users, I fight for all, heritage users, locos, control systems, sound systems.

Go ahead and push your plug-and-play.
I don't care.

Just get someone in charge of the WG without the baggage and we might get somewhere.

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon, once more, no one, no manufacture has to use any plug they do not want to use.  There is no law requiring it.

Yes, Stan has an Idea he likes, others do not like it, He does not control the Working Group.  You buy what you want. I buy what I want.

I like Shay's, and other small steam.  I do not need fancy sound or flashing lights.  Others in our club like Dash-9's, sound, and flashing lights.

And I am not in CA, I am in TX.  Some of our club members run R/C battery, some MTS, some DC, some DCC, some Live Steam, and we all enjoy our hobby of Model Railroading in Large Scale together.  Even though I am the club President, I do not force the NMRA, LSOL, or anything else on any club member.

When we find a problem with anyones equipment we try and find the 'true' problem, and if it is in the layout, we try and fix it.  If it is in the equipment, we try and fix that.  Do we disagree  on items, yes.  Do we:

"If you are speaking for the enema-ray, then I will, in fact, tell you where to place the socket.",

I hope not, but then we are human, and we all get a little upset once in a while.  In the end we enjoy our hobby together and try and make it a place for others to enjoy at the same time.

We seem to have an interesting bit of information circulating in our WG.

Seems there is a link to the nmra honors list....seems you keep good company.

Boy, a little digging in google, and we find all sorts of things.

At least we now know what your real association is.

Based upon your 1974 PNR Grab-Iron Award, I would suspect you lived for a while up in the wet area of the Puget Sound.
That would make it even more surprising that you didn't understand LS outdoors in the rain.

[Nathan]

Curmudgeon,

Yes I lived in the Seattle area for a number of years.  What you are not telling people is that the award was prior to DCC and was for promoting the over all hobby of model railroading.

'Z' scale was new at that time, so we did not have any members in 'Z', but we had member from 'N' up to 1 1/2" scale.  One of our members had a large scale outdoor layout, is was 1/2" scale I believe.  I had the chance to visit the layout several times and talk to the owner about the problems he had.

As for rain, if you will look at Google Earth, at the north east corner of the San Antonio, TX airport, go north across the road, you will find out large scale layout that is part of the transportation museum.  The weather readings for San Antonio are taken at the airport.

If you will check this years weather records you will see we have had a lot of rain.  Some of it very heavy.  No, we do not run trains in heavy rain, but we do run in light rain.  Yes we do run into problems with our DC layout.  We have members who run R/C battery.  They run into problems, a battery goes bad, a connection comes loose.  We have members that have live steam.  They have problems, a valve sticks, a steam line comes loose.  An yes I even have problems when I run DCC.

And for the record I also lived in Vancouver, BC, where I traveled all of BC, parts of Yukon,  and northern Alberta.  I also know about snow and ice.

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon,

Yes I lived in the Seattle area for a number of years.  What you are not telling people is that the award was prior to DCC and was for promoting the over all hobby of model railroading.

'Z' scale was new at that time, so we did not have any members in 'Z', but we had member from 'N' up to 1 1/2" scale.  One of our members had a large scale outdoor layout, is was 1/2" scale I believe.  I had the chance to visit the layout several times and talk to the owner about the problems he had.

As for rain, if you will look at Google Earth, at the north east corner of the San Antonio, TX airport, go north across the road, you will find out large scale layout that is part of the transportation museum.  The weather readings for San Antonio are taken at the airport.

If you will check this years weather records you will see we have had a lot of rain.  Some of it very heavy.  No, we do not run trains in heavy rain, but we do run in light rain.  Yes we do run into problems with our DC layout.  We have members who run R/C battery.  They run into problems, a battery goes bad, a connection comes loose.  We have members that have live steam.  They have problems, a valve sticks, a steam line comes loose.  An yes I even have problems when I run DCC.

And for the record I also lived in Vancouver, BC, where I traveled all of BC, parts of Yukon,  and northern Alberta.  I also know about snow and ice.

Wonderful!
Then we can surmise you fully understand the need to have connections that will not suffer from corrosion in wet weather, are in locations designed to shed water, and the need for space for batteries and other non-dcc electronics, and the sometimes much higher than 3 amp current draw experienced by some locomotives, right?
Glad to have you fully on-board!

[Dan Love]

Where's the specs that's been submitted to international comittee for fire, and explosion containment. This is the core of the interface. The boundry not to be exchanged. Irrespective of power source - this is first priority.

Dan

[Jim Banner]

Where's the specs that's been submitted to international comittee for fire, and explosion containment. This is the core of the interface. The boundry not to be exchanged. Irrespective of power source - this is first priority.
Dan

Is the super socket going to be used in live steam too?

The only explosion hazard in electric large scale is from batteries, and then only when the wrong batteries are incorrectly installed and then mismanaged.  You are more likely to be injured by carrying a 9 volt battery and a set of keys in the same pocket.

[calenelson]

Not just a Bad Decision......A Bad Idea....

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! 

I'm not so sure we've ever agreed that "X" is broken...and beyond that; "X" has yet to be determined to my limited understanding...

cale

[Cascade Northern]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! 

Precisely!!!!!!!