Pulling an incline

[kdgrant6]

A couple of weeks ago I bought a Bachmann Echo Valley DCC set for me and my grandsons to enjoy.  I had the bright idea of buying a 4% incline from Woodland Scenics.  The little Echo Valley engine will pull the grade, but with no more than its tender and a couple of cars.  The grade is 4" over an 8 ft. stretch.

I have a Southern #2735 diesel coming tomorrow.  I am assuming it will be able to pull more cars up the incline with little problem.  Am I wrong?

Would a 3% grade work better?

Thanks for any help.

[ACY]

2 or 3% would be much more manageable. If the diesel locomotive you bought is a Bachmann don't expect to pull too much unless you add some weight to it.

[Len]

About the only place 4% grades would be appropriate is a logging railroad with Shay's, Climax's, and Heisler's.

On regular layouts 3%, what you normally get with over & under pier sets, is considered fairly steep. But most locos can handle it.

2% grades, or less, are generally recommended if you have the space for them.

In the "real world", most railroads try to keep grades under 1%.

Len

[James in FL]

Hi kdgrant6,

The grade is 4" over an 8 ft. stretch.

My calculator says that's a 4.16% grade.
That's a tough grade in any scale.
If possible, increase the length of the run.
If that's not possible, consider double heading.

Good luck

[jward]

on a 4% grade pulling power is 1/6 what it is on the level. while steep, I have successfully used grades such as this. your steamers will have trouble, but the diesels will fare better, especially in multiple. I have one diese3l that will pull 12 cars up a 4% grade.

keep in mind that this problem also exists on the real lines as well. for example, a gp9 diesel on the western Maryland's 3% grade in blackwater canyon, wva, was rated for only 5 cars. this made for some impressive consists when a full train had to climb the mountain.

[kdgrant6]

Thanks to all the replies!  I realize now that I should have researched inclines more before jumping in.  My mistake. 

I'm returning the inclines and will concentrate on developing a flat 4x8 layout that will entertain my grandsons.

[electrical whiz kid]

James/Fla; KD Grant;
There are two approaches to get around height differences:  One is to use a series of "switchbacks"; the other is to just lengthen the "run" of track.  To try to use a 4%+...  grade, is ultimately going to be a lesson in futility-as well as unrealistic and inefficient operation, inviting derailments, stalling, etc.
SGT. C

[uscgtanker]

From track work experience and historical reference a 4% grade is very rare. only found at grade crossings and logging railroads. On the 7 mile line I work on or largest hill is close to 3%. but we run streetcars and interurbans so usally double powered units are run though we can handle more. The DM&IR railroad solved there problem with lower gear ratios on there engines, slower speed but more tractive force. CN found that out the hard way when 3 units couldn't pull 80 ore cars up a particular hill. fortununtly they had a old DM&IR unit as power. that unit alone pulled them all up the hill. weight is also concidered in play the heaver the better but to heavy will break rail so a equalizing has to be done.

Love that your having fun with your grandson on the best hobby in the world. Were else can you do so many things in one hobby.

[kdgrant6]

Thanks for the help.  As I mentioned, my goal is to appeal to my grandsons--not to strive for authenticity.

I received another Bachmann engine yesterday.  It is one of the better line of diesels (Southern # 2735).  It will pull 5 cars slowly up the 4% grade.  I'm guessing that using a 3% incline to go up--instead of 4%--will be the answer.  I'm planning to use the 4% Woodland Scenics set I already have to descend.  At least I'll use 3 of the 4 parts to go from 3" down to level.

Any feedback?

[ACY]

In my opinion 3% is still a bit too much, try for 2% if possible.

[Desertdweller]

I worked on a railroad with a 4% branch line grade.  It was a real headache.  Sometimes, we had to double the hill.

Les

[jward]

if you want to have an over and under type of layout on a 4x8 you are going to have to go with a 3% grade. there just isn't a lot of room for a longer, less steep grade.  however, on a 4x8 you are going to find that long trains overpower the layout, and that shorter ones look much better. this minimizes the problem of steep grades. my suggestion to you is look into anyrail, a track planning software, and use it to build your layout on  a computer screen before you put anything permanent down. this program can be used to determine how steep your grades will need to be for a given track plan, among other things. it is much easier to make any necessary adjustments before you lay any track.

[kdgrant6]

Thanks for the AnyRail idea.

I'm using Bachmann EZ Track.  For all its aesthetic limitations, it is easy to arrange and rearrange (carefully).  I've played with the 4% inclines today.  The newer diesel does fine, so I'm betting that there won't be any problem with the 3% grade, no more cars than I would be pulling.  I tried a consist of the 2 engines and they did very well with extra weight in one of the hoppers. 

You're right that a long train overpowers a 4x8.  The grandsons are more into different things going on.  I've drawn the line at adding dinosaurs.

[James in FL]

I've have two grandsons (4 and 5 yrs.) who love the trains as well.
Open hoppers seem to be reserved for Dinosaurs, Batman, Spiderman figures, and Lego blocks.
The open hoppers are never empty when they come to visit.

I've never tried AnyRail, does it incorporate vertical easements?

Enjoy the grandkids they are a once in a life time experience.

[jward]

you can easily add vertical easements with anyrail. you have several options with regards to grade:
you can set the height manually at any track joint. you can set the height at any point and the grade percentage, and have it cauculate the height at each joint. for an easement what I would do is take one section at the top and bottom of the grade, and set the slope to half the grade of the rest of the climb, i.e a section of 1.5% leading into a 3% climb.