Remote Switches/Turnouts

[Hunt]

Yes, "turnout" is the correct, technical, engineering term for the track component.  I won't argue with that.

However, real railroaders,  verses the guys who sit in offices and wear suits, you know, those guys that actually work on the trains, in the yards, in all weathers, call them a "switch".  My collection of rule books all refers to them as a "switch" and when I worked as a locomotive engineer, we all called them a switch.  "Line the east switch for the siding.". . .

Roger, You just repeated what I wrote only using more words.

Yes, the rule book correctly use the term "switch" as it is referring to the movable parts of a turnout. And you correctly used "line the switch" not the incorrect movie phrase "throw the switch".

[rogertra]

Yes, "turnout" is the correct, technical, engineering term for the track component.  I won't argue with that.

However, real railroaders,  verses the guys who sit in offices and wear suits, you know, those guys that actually work on the trains, in the yards, in all weathers, call them a "switch".  My collection of rule books all refers to them as a "switch" and when I worked as a locomotive engineer, we all called them a switch.  "Line the east switch for the siding.". . .

Roger, You just repeated what I wrote only using more words.

Yes, the rule book correctly use the term "switch" as it is referring to the movable parts of a turnout. And you correctly used "line the switch" not the incorrect movie phrase "throw the switch".

Hunt.

With all due respect, not really.  Maintenance of way employees also refer to the whole "turnout" as a "switch".  Only they use the term "switch points" to define the moving parts of a "switch".  Not only have I been a locomotive engineer, I have also built several full size "switches" and laid track with real working railroaders and I never heard the term "turnout" used once.

And I agree, no railroader ever says "Throw the switch", that's a modeller's term.  Real railroaders "Line the switch" or "Get the switch" as they are far to heavy to "throw". 

BTW, it's from the name "switch points" in the UK that railwaymen use the term "points" just like our railroaders use the term "switch" to refer to a "turnout".

Of course, all this is semantics and all that counts is that we all know what we are referring to when we use either railroad talk and "Line the switch" or model railroad talk when we "Throw the turnout." 

Cheers

Roger T.

[Hunt]

. . .  Maintenance of way employees also refer to the whole "turnout" as a "switch".  Only they use the term "switch points" to define the moving parts of a "switch". . . .

Roger,
Your experience is what it is and as you acknowledged not technically correct. Your rule book uses switch properly.

However, your experience  is not the point of view of maintenance of way personnel from different railroads I have questioned on the subject of switch vs turnout over several years. Except for one person had same point of view as you just wrote. I found out later when I asked his supervisor about it he had be on his crew just a few weeks.  I was assured he would know differently before he finished his on-the-job  training. 

You can have the last word if you wish.

[guslcp]

For whatever it's worth...When I run my trains, I think to myself - "Gotta line up the switches for track three". Or something along those lines...

Gus.

[jward]

on csx when the dispatcher talks a train by a stop signal at a control point, he will inform the crew whether the switches are in "manual" or "motor".....on all railroads I dealt with (csx, ns/conrail, and b&p) we always reported the switch lined and locked when we were in the clear. we also have switch heaters on all remote controlled switches, the propane powered ones are pretty cool to look at on a cold winter night, with flames shooting up along the outside of the stock rail.

btw, the manual lever used to line the switch is called a switchstand, not a ground throw.....and the ones used on remote controlled switches are called switch motors, not switch machines.

I could go on, as there are a lot of terms modellers use that are completely different than real life.

[rogertra]

on csx when the dispatcher talks a train by a stop signal at a control point, he will inform the crew whether the switches are in "manual" or "motor".....on all railroads I dealt with (csx, ns/conrail, and b&p) we always reported the switch lined and locked when we were in the clear. we also have switch heaters on all remote controlled switches, the propane powered ones are pretty cool to look at on a cold winter night, with flames shooting up along the outside of the stock rail.

btw, the manual lever used to line the switch is called a switchstand, not a ground throw.....and the ones used on remote controlled switches are called switch motors, not switch machines.

I could go on, as there are a lot of terms modellers use that are completely different than real life.

So, so true.

Cheers

Roger Traviss

[West Bound]

 I just got an 0-8-0 switcher or is it an 0-8-0 turnouter??? lol
I have been a model railroader for about 60 years. The term "turnout" in model railroading did not exist when I started. Sometime along the way this term made its way into the hobby. I asked two old friends that are retired REAL railroad engineers, B&O and CSX. Neither one has ever used the term "turnout" only the term "switch". I will continue to call them switches. You model railroaders can call them turnouts. It appears to me that both terms are acceptable for model railroading these days. - John West

[rogertra]

I just got an 0-8-0 switcher or is it an 0-8-0 turnouter??? lol
I have been a model railroader for about 60 years. The term "turnout" in model railroading did not exist when I started. Sometime along the way this term made its way into the hobby. I asked two old friends that are retired REAL railroad engineers, B&O and CSX. Neither one has ever used the term "turnout" only the term "switch". I will continue to call them switches. You model railroaders can call them turnouts. It appears to me that both terms are acceptable for model railroading these days. - John West

I agree John.

They will always be "switches" to me.

Cheers

Roger T.

[Hunt]

. . .  It appears to me that both terms are acceptable for model railroading these days. . . .

Using Switch and Turnout as interchangeable terms should not be acceptable, if you know they are not. 



"The basic parts of a turnout are a switch, a frog, guard rails (when required) and a switch stand."

Quote - Atlantic Track & Turnout Co., which started in track business in 1924 – Today company does business as Atlantic Track 

[Len]

Switch and Turnout are both correct, but not in every situation. It all depends on whether you're working on the "Operations" side, or the "Engineering" side of the railroad. I went digging through my collection of Operating Rulebooks and Engineering Standards, and invariably the Rulebooks use "switch" and the Engineering Standards use "turnout" for the complete assembly. Although the Standards do use "switch" for the moving portion of the turnout.

So, if you want to be pendantic about it, when you're designing and building a layout it's a turnout. Once it's built and your operating trains, it's a switch. Unless you're in the UK, where it's "points".

Personally, I think it's kind of pointless (pun intended) to keep going back and forth on this. At any rate, for anyone who cares, these are the definitions I found common across Rulebooks and Engineering Standards:

Definitions common to 'Railway Operations' Rule Books:

Crossover – Arrangement of tracks and switches providing a route from one track to another.

Interlocking – Arrangement of signals and switches so interconnected that functions must succeed each other in a predetermined sequence, which permits train movements over routes only when non-conflicting conditions exist.

Switch – Special track work for routing from one track to another.

Switch, Automatic – Electrically powered switch that is controlled remotely.

Switch, Dual-Control – Track switch controlled remotely or operated manually.

Switch, Facing Point – A switch aligned such that the switch points face toward the approaching train movement.

Switch, Manual – Track switch operated manually.

Switch, Plug – Device inserted into a switch point to prevent movement.

Switch, Point – That portion of the special trackwork that moves in the open or closed position.

Switch, Diverge Position – Switch position aligned for diverging movement over a track switch.

Switch, Straight Position – Switch position aligned for normal movement over a track switch.

Switch, Spring – Switch equipped with a spring arranged to restore its points to their original position after having been trailed through by each wheel.

Switch, Trailing Point – A switch aligned such that the switch points face away from the approaching train movement.

Switch, Variable (Slap and Stay) – Track switches not requiring alignment for trailing movements and once moved, switch points remain aligned in the trailed position. Variable switches shall be properly aligned for facing movements.

4.20 Switches and Crossovers
4.20.1 When operating on surface alignment over facing point switches, speed shall not exceed 3 mph until the rear of the train has cleared the switch points.
4.20.2 Employees are prohibited from reversing direction of a train over a switch.
4.20.3 Employees shall not change position of any Mainline switches unless authorized by OCC.
4.20.4 Train Operators are responsible for observing switch points and shall not operate through switches where it is observed that points are open or the track work is damaged or broken. Contact OCC for instructions.
4.20.5 Manual sanding is prohibited over switches except in an emergency.
=======================================================

Definitions common to 'Railway Engineering' Standards:

TRACK DESIGN

Turnout Definitions

Point of Switch (P.S.): The point at which a track begins to diverge from another
Point of Intersection (P.I.): As applied to turnouts, the point of intersection of the centerlines of the diverging track and the through track
Point of Frog (P.F.): The point at which two running rails intersect within a turnout or crossing
Heel of Frog: The end of the frog that is furthest from the point of switch.

Turnouts
A turnout (T.O.) consists of all parts of the track structure, including switch points, frog, rails, switch ties, fastenings, etc., necessary to connect one track to another. Turnouts are designated by the size of the frog contained in the turnout. Turnouts installed on industrial sidetrack shall include switch point guards.
======================================

Len

[jward]

all that pretty much bears out what I've been saying all along.

as a side note, only rules 420-3 and 420.4 still apply, trains routinely exceed 3mph over facing point switches, to do otherwise would bring the railroads to a standstill. as a matter of fact we were able to run up to 45mph through the diverging route on certain switches.

rule 420.2  only applies to switches within an interlocking. basically, you must completely clear the interloking limits before the switches unlock and can be relined. only then can you reverse direction on a new route. if the interlockings are spaced close together, such as in a yard or station throat, it is possible that your train will be fouling one or more interlockings when you reverse direction. in this case, you must only be clear of the one where the switches must be relined.

rule 420.5 is pretty much a moot point as nobody manually sands the rails anymore. interesting that there are no restrictions on using automatic sanders on switches.


btw, the occ referred to would be the train dispatcher, or if the interlocking is under local control, the tower operator.

[WoundedBear]

This discussion makes me glad that all I do, is play with toy trains

Sid

[James in FL]

@ WoundedBear

 
 
Yeah me too!


Yet another ******* contest between the experts...

Surely it helps to encourage and foster the newbies here, and give them confidence to post again.

[Len]

James & Sid, I'm with you. As I said above, "Personally, I think it's kind of pointless (pun intended) to keep going back and forth on this."

And just to add to the confusion, today I learned that a lot of the newer electrified "Light Rail" lines use "turnout" to refer to what we would call a "passing siding". Go figure.

Len

[Hunt]

At least once a year for more than a decade an "is it switch or turnout"  has been started by me.   It always brings out some interesting perspectives, perversion of logic and conclusions. Thanks to all who contribute this time.
 
BTW -I intentionally placed an error of fact in my following reply on February 04, 2015.
"The switch vs turnout premise of JS Geare article is debunked by any technically accurate Mechanical Railroad/Railway Engineering text."

My reply without the error it is, "The switch vs turnout premise of the JS Geare article is debunked by any technically accurate Railroad/Railway Civil Engineering text."