Radio Control for HO

[Atlantic Central]

Update:

Several other modelers have expressed interest in the pushbutton block control system and the Train Engineer for there layouts. This should help with the already reasonable cost of production for the pushbutton block control.

Several improved X section circuits have been developed to take fuller advantage of the pushbutton block controller and the features of the TE.

These circuits will provide automatic asignment of short track sections through crossovers and large junctions and will provide automatic dead zones between blocks not asigned to the same cab - making it virtually impossible to overrun your cab and be in another cabs control.

Also, an X section arangement has been developed to provide walk around control of single track mainlines without any running ahead or doubling back to check block asignments or turnout positions at passing sidings. This too will have the automatic dead section feature.

So far the projected cost for my intire layout is less than two thirds of the estimated DCC decoder cost for the existing loco fleet of 150. This Estimate does not yet include signals or dection, but niether does any basic DCC system.

Detection and signaling tests are underway at this time - results to follow soon.

Sheldon

[jsmvmd]

Dear Sheldon,

I have received the 3A power pack and Cre-55470.  Thanks a million for the tip.  If you don't mind, I have a few questions:

1.   Can I use rechargable batteries in the cab/throttle?  If so, which do you recommend?  Jim Banner several months ago had said something about choosing the proper mAh sizes for good duration.

2.   The three buttons on the bottom do not match the set's instructions for initial setup.  For example, the lower left button on my cab is the "on/off."  The center button is different, too.  Do you use them in the same manner as the instructions describe?

3.   I am building a 15 inches x 30 inches switching yard for the kids to play with until I receive my large layout.  I want to use a center X-section with Atlas code 100 rail and several #4 turnouts with switch motors.   Imagine it is like a European Z with two parallel center tracks which use 30 degree or similar crossing sections.  My question is do I have to worry about dead shorts?  Do I have to "block" wire this baby, and if so do I need DPDT or push button switches?

Thank you. 

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas to all!

Jack

[Atlantic Central]

Jack,

Rechargable batteries? Good question, I don't know but will send an E-mail to TATE at Aristo Craft and post that question on their board. My first reaction is no since most rechargable batteries are slightly lower in voltage than regular akaline batteries. I would imagine that regular batteries will last pretty long in this application, especially now that the transmitter has an on/off switch - so I don't know that rechargables would be any great advantage because the life of each charge is usually only half the life of regular batteries - could mean a lot more battery changing for a very small economic benifit. While I have not used mine for any really long periods yet, I have not had to replace any batteries since I began testing several months ago.

I know, they have updated the product without updating the pictures in the instructions, I was confused a little at first too. The programing does work exactly the same and the new/changed features are discribed in randomly placed added notes in the instructions. - I have offered to write a new instruction book for them, maybe they will take me up on the offer. If you have any trouble give me a call.

With Atlas components you should not have any shorts as long as you don't have a wye or reverse loop - so it can be all one block with one feed and all metal rail joiners. I'm not sure I understand the track layout, so if you still have questions fax me sketch to my same number you have and give me a call.

Block detectors arived today from Oak Tree Systems - test results soon!

Merry Christmas

Sheldon

[Atlantic Central]

Jack,

Answer on rechargeable batteries from Lewis Polk at Aristo - no warranty problem but he does not recommend them for the voltage/cycle life reasons I ststed above.

Sheldon

[jsmvmd]

Dear Sheldon,

Gracias, con mucho gusto!

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas!

Jack

[Atlantic Central]

Update:

Two topics - train speed and detection for signals

Detection - I have tested the solid state detectors made by Oak Tree Systems. This is a solid state opti-isolator type detector. The detector worked fine with the TE with the loco moving - BUT, two problems where found that seem to have no satisfactory solution.

One - because the TE is a transistorized throttle, or just becuase of its internal circuitry, no effective bias current could be established to operate this type of detector at zero throttle voltage.

Two- The diodes that supply the detector with its signal lowered the track voltage by 1.5 volts. This is not considered acceptable with the power supply inuse since maximum train speeds are perfect at the normal max voltage without the diodes.

It is likely that all detectors of this type will suffer this problem with the TE.

Two other detector types will be tried, the time tested Twin-T and the inductive isolated ones from Dallee Electronics.

Train speed - as noted above, using the 13.8 volt power supply, the TE supplies a max voltage under load of 13.35. This seems to provide nearly perfect top speed for most modern HO models. This is considered important since it allows the fullest use of the speed range/steps built into the TE. And, while trains will seldom run at those speeds, having similar capability as the prototype seems most logical.

Example - test with Proto E-8

Allowed to reach max voltage/speed the loco was clocked at 1.5 actual feet per second which equals 88 scale miles per hour. The normal max speed for the prototype is 85 MPH. Tests with other locos where similar.

Sheldon

[Atlantic Central]

Update on the last update!

After several hours of reading/thinking, and a few more tests the problems with the opti-isolator detector have been largely, but not completely, solved.

The additon of a 680 ohm resistor across the TE output has solved the problem of the bias current not working. Exact optimum values for the bias voltage resistor, dectection resistors and output resistors have yet to be established, but it does work!

The voltage drop is still a question - it could be compensated for partly by adjusting up the power supply, but the limit on that seems to be about 14.15 volts, still leaving us a little short of the desired track voltage.

This is where a circuit like the Twin-T may be a better detector choice. Even a diode shunted version of the Twin-T would only loose .75 volts, not 1.5. Building my own Twin-T detectors would also be the least expensive choice. Of the commerical ones on the market, Oak Tree is most reasonable, Dallee's inductive one is most expensive.

16 volt power supplies would fix it, BUT we already have the 13.8v ones, they perform well and the cost is lower than what I could build 16 volt ones for.

Sheldon

[jsmvmd]

Dear Sheldon,

Good update!

Would MU consists of 2 or 3 diesel engines give a marginal voltage drop allowing you to still use the 13.8 V/3A power pack?

Perhaps you could provide a schematic if you build your opti-isolator detector?

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas!

Jack

[Atlantic Central]

Jack,

Multiple units do not produce any noticable voltage drop because the power suppy is regulated, in other words as amps increase, the power supply keeps the voltage constant up to its rating of 4 amps. I have already tested the TE and power supply with as many as 8 locos at one, no power problems, still had about 13.2 volts at 2 amps at full throttle.

BUT, the internal circuits of the TE uses/bleeds off about .5 volts and the detector diodes bleed of another 1.5 - too much. The power supply regulator does not know where the voltage is going so it cannot/will not compensate for these effects. It only knows it "sent it out" - not how it got used.

The detectors I might build would be the old Twin-T circuit which dates back to 1958, but with a few updates. It is a transistor circuit. Many consider it completely outdated, but I am of the opinion that things not broken need not be "fixed" (or replaced). One version of it also uses shunting diodes, but only one instead of two in the supply path at any given time, so the voltage drop is only .75. This, combined with bumping up the supply voltage to 14.10, would result in a max track votage of 12.85, only .5 volts lower than without the detectors.

The Twin-T can also be built without diodes but larger power transistors are needed. They have less voltage drop than the diodes and would result in almost no votage change. Sometimes old is better!

Sheldon

[jsmvmd]

Dear Sheldon,

I'll vouch for older is better!  Will fill you in if you would like, but it might be TMI!

I have two friends who are electronic whizzes who could help me with the construction if I go that route. 

My layout is conventional block wired with two cabs, so perhaps two TE's would suffice.  At this juncture I am not sure if I will use computer block control or not.  Possibly not since there will not be multiple operators, nor too many trains running at one time.  I surely want to know how your situation is panning out, and will be paying attention!!!

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas!

Jack

[jsmvmd]

Dear Sheldon,

My search for "Twin-T detectors" gave this link:

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~rdmurg/clinic/detectit.htm

I would be anxious to read your comments.  If you have a better link, would you please provide it?  Seems to have the stuff I need to build a circuit.

On another hand, the military provides lots of "sir kits," don't you think?

Our military friends are encouraged to comment!

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas!

Jack

[Atlantic Central]

Jack,

That's a good link. It's the most comprehensive one I've seen. Not meaning to be sarcastic, but I have all that info in those old fashioned things called books (in addition to a large library of books, I have complete sets of Model Railroader from about 1960 to now), so except to lookup some manufacturer info, I have not really searched the web. When I do find stuff on the web of value, my next action is to push "print". I know, I'm just old fashioned.

Actually, the Dallee product - www.dallee.com - is looking very favorable. I may order some today.

Sheldon

[Atlantic Central]

Update:

I just got off the phone with the folks at Dallee, his detector system is the answer. It uses a high frequency bleeder current for detection when the throttle is off. That signal is isolated from the throttles. The detector is inductive so no voltage drop at all - all of this is well worth the slightly higher cost.

Items ordered for testing!

Sheldon

[jsmvmd]

Dear Sheldon,

Is that Dalee item: BASIC DETECTOR TRAK-DT ( Item #365) ?

Thanks and Best Wishes!

Jack

[Atlantic Central]

Jack,

Yes, and the companion "keep alive". Should arive in only a day or two since he is close to us both.

Sheldon