DCC

[merlin2662]

I'm using the Aristo Revolution TE with battery power.
Unfortunately ,as I found out , this controller is a proprietary system,therefor very limited as far as programming is
concerned,as well it doesn't have back emf capability.
My question is,can I use another loc controller board that will work with the Revolution or do I have to ditch the Aristo system to get what I'm after?
Any info and advice is appreciated.

[Kevin Strong]

If you want DCC-level control in a wireless, onboard, battery-powered installation, your options are pretty limited. And--despite DCC being open source--the way the transmitters and receivers work, your solutions are still somewhat proprietary in nature.

If you're looking at very low-current locomotives (less than 2.5amps), then you can use Airwire's "Convertr" wireless receiver in conjunction with any DCC decoder that can handle the current load of your locomotive (so long as you don't exceed the capacity of the decoder, which will vary based on the decoder, or the 2.5 amp capacity of the "Convertr" board. Unfortunately, DCC decoders rated for more than one amp that aren't specifically "large scale" decoders (thus carrying a much heftier price tag) are fairly rare on the market. Still, it's an option if there's a specific DCC decoder that has specific functions that you might want to use--so long as you don't exceed 2.5 amps total current draw.

Next up would be Airwire's "G3" receiver. This gives you DCC control of motors, lights, and smoke, and also has a 2.5-amp DCC booster output that you can use for sound and other function outputs. Many people opt to use Phoenix sound boards with the Airwire, but it can control others as well. The motor control on the G3 is very good, and it has a "cruise control" feature that is excellent when it comes to maintaining a constant speed over varying grades.

The Airwire boards all require an Airwire handheld transmitter. Their current version is the "T5000" handheld throttle. You can also use an NCE "G-wire" or "Garden wire" transmitter (They're the same controller, I've just seen them called both names.) There are some compatibility issues when it comes to programming the decoders, with the NCE controller, so you're best served with (at least) buying an Airwire transmitter for programming.

You could also go with QSI's "Titan" board, used in conjunction with their "G-wire" receiver. This combination also works with the Airwire transmitter, but works better with the G-wire transmitter mentioned above. At issue at the moment is that the "G-wire" receivers are not in production, with no estimate on when production might resume. Apparently there are supply issues with the chip for the receiver. So, while it's an option, it's not an option if you're looking for an immediate solution. QSI's motor control can be very good, but programming the "regulated throttle control" aspect of it is something of a black art. You can find recommended values for the various parameters on line for many common locomotives, but you'll not find an explanation anywhere about what each one does, and what the adjustments are actually changing. (You can just run with "standard" throttle control, which is usually pretty smooth in its own right.) The sounds that come with the QSI boards are very, very good.

Personally, I use all three systems (Revolution, Airwire, and QSI/G-wire). I'm fairly fanatical when it comes to proper control of motor and sound, often spending a week or more tweaking a single locomotive to "get it right." I really can't pick a clear winner. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. I like the programming simplicity of the Revolution, which I find gives me pretty ample motor control for many of my locos. It works well with the Phoenix sound system. The Airwire/Phoenix combination is also very good. I probably like the Airwire's motor control the best, as it's easy to tweak to get really good smooth starts and stops from locos that might otherwise be rough starters. The QSI decoders are top drawer, and the sound quality is very good. Because the sound and motor control are integrated onto one board, it's easy to tune things so the sounds react prototypically to changes in speed. The current lack of the G-wire receivers is unfortunately a major concern at the moment. I must admit to being something of a geek, though, and the QSI's prototypical braking feature is fun to play with.

What specific functionality are you finding the Revolution missing? You mention back EMF, but what are you finding with your installations where you find motor control lacking? Are you looking for more function controls than what the Revolution offers? I'm in no way trying to convince you to stay with the Revolution, but depending on what you're looking to do, there may be ways to get the Revolution to do what you want, saving you the trouble of shifting gears.

There's also nothing wrong with using multiple systems (as I do). That does a few things for you. First, because you have different transmitters, even if they're arguably proprietary in nature, you have the flexibility to "ride out the storm" should specific parts (like the G-wire receiver) temporarily disappear from the market. You can also easily tailor your choice of receiver, motor, and sound controller for the specific locomotive you're working on. Yeah, it's a bit more expensive to buy multiple transmitters (usually around $150 each), but the way I figure, you're going to want more than one anyway, so you can have multiple operators. Why not spread the wealth and increase the flexibility of your choices at the same time? Nowhere is it written that you must choose only one of the above.

Later,

K

[merlin2662]

Kevin,I appreciate your expert input.
Two years ago I got into the garden railway hobby.
I picked a logging theme and bought a Bachmann 2662 and a Bachmann three truck shay.
Both engines are set up with the Revolution TE  and Phoenix P8 sound. I have no
problems with this set up and the engines function well.My layout is all battery power.
As I got more into it, reading about DCC and scouring the internet ,I came across
some quite impressive engines that were equipped with Zimo and Massoth decoders and sound/ pulsed smoke
units. Though on the expensive side they 'seem' much more realistic,especially the smoke unit.
But one of my main objective is to have a sort of cruise control, which back emf can provide ( To a point )
From my understanding this is a feature that the Revo decoder doesn't have.
I just purchased a second Bachmann 2662 DCC ready, and I'm exploring a different set up for this engine
which would allow me to make use of JMRI programming and the use of different sound/smoke .
In my estimation this would make for an interesting comparison.
As I mentioned,I'm quite happy with the Revo and don't want to ditch the system , I'm just looking for more
options to play with. The whole DCC subject is very interesting and opens many possibilities.
You provided many good points and info which I appreciate and will take into consideration,Kevin.
Thanks for clearing up the issue of DCC a bit more for me.

[Kevin Strong]

Cruise control can be a good thing if your railroad has lots of steep grades and you want to just sit back and watch trains run at fairly constant speeds. The Airwire G3 has the best cruise control of all the battery R/C systems on the market that I've run. I've set a locomotive running on my dad's railroad, which as grades as extreme as 8% on one short stretch. With the cruise control engaged, there wasn't any discernible change in speed over the entire railroad, up or downhill. QSI has its "regulated throttle control," but I've not found it to be as consistent. It could be that I don't have the "PID" motor parameters set properly, but that's that "black art" thing I mentioned that no one can tell me what actually controls what. Without the G-wire receiver, though, the QSI is a non-starter for the battery R/C crowd. My grades aren't that bad (< 2.5%), so the trains run at a fairly constant speed even without any kind of cruise control. I do engage it every now and then just for fun, but I find when I do that on the locos with Phoenix sound, the speed is so constant that I don't get any variation in the chuff as the loco encounters grades. I prefer to hear the chuff change cadence as it goes up and down hills, as it's more "realistic."

In terms of pulsed smoke, you will likely have to improvise something. The QSI Titan can do it, but--again--you need the G-wire receiver. The Airwire G3 will drive a smoke unit, but I don't think it supports pulsed smoke without some external trickery. (It can likely be done, but you'll have to devise the control method to time it with the chuffs.) You might be able to use the G3 to drive the motor of the 2-6-6-2, then use the DCC booster output of the G3 to drive the Zimo, Massoth, or QSI decoder specifically for smoke. That booster output is rated at 2.5 amps, so if you're not using the decoder to drive the motors but just the smoke (and maybe sound), it may work. I've not worked with those decoders in that capacity, though, so I'm not sure how you'd go about syncing it to the chuff.

There's a guy in the Washington DC area who's a wizard with smoke and battery R/C. All of his stuff is his own design, but he'd probably be able to get you going in the right direction. Shoot me your e-mail, and I'll get you in touch.

Later,

K

[merlin2662]

Hi, Kevin
Sorry for not being able to get back to you right away.
Thanks for the additional info especially on the pulsed smoke.
It seems installing one would exceed my competence at this point in time.
Though I am very impressed with the amount of smoke that can be generated with
these set ups I will revisit this at a later time.
I will look into using the Airwire G3 and the Zimo sound.
Thanks again for your info, and being very helpful
Reiner