N&W J 4-8-4 constantly derails

[riff99]

Good Day fellow rail fans...

Looking for some help here from anyone whose owned or owns a Norfolk & Western J 4-8-4 #612 Spectrum DCC Sound Engine.  We've had it for about 4 yrs now, but it has seen very little track time in that time period due to its ongoing issue with derailments.  Originally I learnt about the 22 inch radius issue with this engine, and figured I had things licked when I got a bunch of Bachmann EZ 22 inch corner track.  Seems all other engines are happy as ever, but this 4-8-4 J just will not make a corner without a derailment of some sort...usually the tender's front wheels and some times the front 2 wheels of the engine come off.  Because it "usually" is the tender, I had a good look at what is happening as it enters the turn.  It appears that the tender gets slightly lifted up entering the turn by what appears to be the bizarre coupler situation between the engine and tender that accompanies this model.  Perhaps even the sound wiring between the two seemed a bit tight as well, but being new at this, I was hesitant to take anything apart and fine tune whatever I felt needed help.  This year we set up the HO's again, and hesitantly again opened up the 4-8-4 to see how we left things with it.  And right on queue, the engine didn't even make one circuit around a very simple layout of a rounded rectangle using 22 inch corners.  I did the first corner very slowly and it seemed fine.  I went a bit faster entering turn 3, and sure enough, off it went.  Again, 'maybe' going half speed.  And again it appeared like the tender just gets lifted off with the darn coupler Bachmann for some reason set up between the two.  I've read similar instances of this but never as often as it seems to happen with this engine and tender.  When I read one post, the guy talked of manipulating the coupler, but never went into details.  This was a present to my son, and he really doesn't want to give it up, so I took the plunge to try and figure out the issue.  I was able to get the coupler connectors off both engine and tender and removed the slider bar that completed the coupler itself.  I ran the engine with just the wire connection to see if removing the coupler helped.  It actually did, but at 3/4 throttle, the tender again came off in the turn.  So I figured 'part' of the issue WAS the wiring being too tight.  I then took apart the tender and actually was able to loosen the wires, as they were tied just before the 8 pin connector.  Once the tender was screwed back together, I felt I shouldn't run the engine again with just the wiring holding things together, so I refastened the coupler back into place and tried the engine once again.  No Joy!  Turn three had the tender come off again.  I tried 1/4 throttle and it too seemed to barely make it.  Could the coupler itself be defective??  I just don't understand why they made the coupler for this engine.  Does anyone know of a modification to this coupler design or any other ideas in order to get this working for us.  I know better track is a must, but I can't see this engine making a corner on ANY kind of track.  Just looking for some ideas...please.

[ACY]

I have two Bachmann N&W J class locomotives. When I still had a layout set up in my basement, one of my locos derailed on the 22" radius, so I brought it down to my local club and never had a single derailment while running them down there. I think if you increase the minimum radius you should not have any more derailments, but you will have to experiment and see what radius exactly fixes the problem. Perhaps start with 24" radius and go up from there.
The coupler you refer to, is actually the drawbar by the way, and many of Bachmann's steam locomotives as well as some of their competitors locomotives have a very similar set up. One version of the J has the drawbar with two holes to choose from while the other is permanently attached, I have both versions and I have a feeling you are having a problem with the latter.

[riff99]

As annoying as it sounds, you may be right in the option of having to opt up to a higher radius of track corner.  This engine just does not like these 22's.  I'm feeling that in learning about the turning radius of this engine, that perhaps I caused an issue with this engine trying to get it to originally maneuver 18 inch turns.  Learning at the time about how this engine will not do anything under 22 inch corners had me hot under the collar, as I did not see any detail about this issue when I first purchased it.  Only later reading online about it's issues, had me understand it all.  Now, with figuring out (Thx ACY) that the most probable fix, due to this J's "permanent coupler", that I have to hope that 24's do the job.  I'm at my wits end with it all.  It IS good to know that this strange coupler (to me) is on more than this type of model and doing well for those that own one.  Here's praying...

[riff99]

The are the coupler parts I'm having issues with:

http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_68_89&products_id=713

http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=714

http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=715

I'd love to know what the other type of coupler assembly there is.

[Doneldon]

riff-

I wouldn't be so quick to rip out your 22" curves in favor of 24" There are a couple of things you should try first.

Regarding the front tender truck wheels: The wiring between Bachmann steam locomotives and their tenders can easily cause a derailment if the wires aren't adjusted right. Most of the locos come with the wires just randomly positioned, potentially exerting sideways pressure on the front of the tender and, therefore, the front tender truck. The solution is to reorient the wires so they have a vertical loop between the loco and tender. That way, the wire will twist itself as it rounds curves as opposed to the way horizontal loops can push against the tender.

Sometimes the spring above the pilot truck on a loco won't do a good job of holding the truck on the rails. Try removing the spring and then add some weight on top of the pilot truck. You can use fishing weights or whatever you have. Be sure that the weight you add does not interfere with anything under the loco.

Good luck with your J. Please keep us up to date on your progress with this problem.
                                                                                                                               -- D

[electrical whiz kid]

Don;
I have had some success just super-gluing in random spots along the bundle.  This keeps them together and mostly out of the way.  I like it.
However, I have to go along strongly with larger radii if you can at all facilitate it.
RIch C.

[riff99]

Thanks Gentlemen...

I truly appreciate ANY advice in getting this beautiful engine to actually work for us.  As it is, the wiring does appear to be a bit of a mess as I've kept the wires loose after lengthening them somewhat.  I'll look into the vertical loop suggestion before I order the 26" corner track, as 24's don't appear available with Bachmann.  I'm not sure how much leeway I have with the wiring to create the loop, but again I'm game to try anything to getting this engine around the track and making our son happy.  I'll keep reporting back each circumstance.

Best regards,

Bruce
riff99

[Striker1945]

Riff,

I myself own two of these Class J's now and both run fine around the 22" curves after some fiddling. On the second J, I had to, as Doneldon suggests, pop the tender apart and re-position/glue the wires together in a way which didn't cause my tender to de-rail. Definitely try that before going to the larger curves.
Once you've fixed whatever issue is plaguing you loco they will run fine around the 22" curves.

As an aside, did you buy the loco in a set or separately? I purchased my first Class J from the Cavalier set and while the loco was fine the coaches were, and still are to some extent, a bit temperamental in regards to running on 22" curves. Was wondering if you had a similar experience.

-Striker

[ACY]

I myself own two of these Class J's now and both run fine around the 22" curves after some fiddling. On the second J, I had to, as Doneldon suggests, pop the tender apart and re-position/glue the wires together in a way which didn't cause my tender to de-rail. Definitely try that before going to the larger curves.
Once you've fixed whatever issue is plaguing you loco they will run fine around the 22" curves.

As an aside, did you buy the loco in a set or separately? I purchased my first Class J from the Cavalier set and while the loco was fine the coaches were, and still are to some extent, a bit temperamental in regards to running on 22" curves. Was wondering if you had a similar experience.

Striker,
You do know that there are two different J's made by Bachmann right? Do your locomotives have the permanent draw bar or do they have the non-permanent (adjustable) draw bar? If you have the locomotives with the adjustable draw bar then you are comparing apples and oranges.
Also I almost bought a Cavalier set about 10 years ago, however I ended up buying 4 of the Spectrum passenger cars, which are the same as what was in the set and I had no issues with them on 22" radius. The reason the passenger cars derail may be due to the locomotive that is pulling them (the 4-8-4 J), so maybe you can try pulling them with a 4 axle diesel just to see if that works.

[riff99]

Hi Striker...thanks for your reply.

I actually DID purchase a four car Spectrum heavyweight N&W passenger set to work with the J so that it looked more like the real deal, but again we've had very little time to try them out with all the issues with that loco and tender.  To see them on the track, we've had them work with our Spectrum DCC sound USRA N&W Heavy mountain 4-8-2.  That engine had been a godsend in every way that the J hasn't been.  It'll run with any number of cars on ANY corner track (or at least with our 18's).  That was one purchase I'll never regret.  The passenger cars are reddish brown and lighted (very cool with the lights off).  Oh to see them run with the J (in a perfect world).  Sorry to ramble.  Striker, to answer your question, I purchased the DCC J as a separate loco and tender.  I later added a Spectrum N&W Water tender as well, but again with very little running time.  I'm going to try to upload a picture or two.  The main thing is to notice the spacing between the engine and tender related to the rest of the train.  It's like night and day.  I'm going to show the poor wiring I'm working with as well.  It's quite loose and I won't try to run the train again until I rectify that.  I may hold off on the "glue" suggestion until I try just tying the wires first.  Thanks again!

[riff99]

No can do with pictures as it says the "upload folder is full".  Strange as I haven't been on here in a while and I can't find an upload folder anywhere.  The file is 119 Kb.

[riff99]

Read about Photo Bucket.  Here goes nothing:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/riff099/dcc_j_front_zpsb542449e.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/riff099/dcc_j_back_zpse4849689.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/riff099/dcc_j_wiring_zpsb8e53b3c.jpg

Hopefully the images show the entire train as I wish it to run, as well as the wiring issue I need to deal with.

[riff99]

This is for Doneldon and who else may have tried his suggestion of the vertical loop between the loco and tender.  Well, I tried it and it looks awful compared to how I perceived you explaining it.  I now looks more like my 3 year old's attempt at tying a shoe lace. And the worse part is I can't seem to undo it as it is incredibly tangled now.  I've had to go with plan B and twist the wires and try ti flatten then somewhat.  Also in order to completely clear the issue of interfering with the coupler loop,  I've got the twisted wire now going underneath the coupler connection to the tender and up before the front wheels on the tender.  There was just enough wire length to allow the 8 pin connector to hook back up.  It seems to work turning right, but turning left is a complete new nightmare.  I may be stuck keeping this engine turning right in order to keep using, BUT at least I am finally able to use it.  It's a beautiful sight to see it run with it's tenders and passenger cars especially with the lights off.  Of course this trial run with without the e-z track switches, which a lot of the engines seem to have issues with, and I'm not just talking about switching track with them.  Just crossing over them can cause the entire set to trip something and restart and engines whose sound was muted.  I've heard good things about Kato road bed switches not causing this, or even Atlas True-Track, so I may go that way in the future.  We'll see how the J likes the switches as the next test.

[Doneldon]

This is for Doneldon and who else may have tried his suggestion of the vertical loop between the loco and tender.  Well, I tried it and it looks awful compared to how I perceived you explaining it.  I now looks more like my 3 year old's attempt at tying a shoe lace. And the worse part is I can't seem to undo it as it is incredibly tangled now.  I've had to go with plan B and twist the wires and try ti flatten then somewhat.  Also in order to completely clear the issue of interfering with the coupler loop,  I've got the twisted wire now going underneath the coupler connection to the tender and up before the front wheels on the tender.  There was just enough wire length to allow the 8 pin connector to hook back up.  It seems to work turning right, but turning left is a complete new nightmare.  I may be stuck keeping this engine turning right in order to keep using, BUT at least I am finally able to use it.  It's a beautiful sight to see it run with it's tenders and passenger cars especially with the lights off.  Of course this trial run with without the e-z track switches, which a lot of the engines seem to have issues with, and I'm not just talking about switching track with them.  Just crossing over them can cause the entire set to trip something and restart and engines whose sound was muted.  I've heard good things about Kato road bed switches not causing this, or even Atlas True-Track, so I may go that way in the future.  We'll see how the J likes the switches as the next test.

riff-

I'm sorry if my directions weren't clear enough but I cannot imagine how you wound up with the tangled mess you describe.  It is clear from your description that you didn't do what I suggested. The vertical loop solution has worked for me and for dozens of others who have followed it. Please ask for clarification if something I say, or anyone says for that matter, isn't clear.
                                                                                                                                    -- D

[riff99]

My apologies Doneldon.  I should have worded that better.  I pictured the loop you described so well and was only mad at myself for attempting it without clarification.  I was so sure I knew what you were aiming at, but just became more frustrated when it wasn't happening.  Thus Plan B.  The nice thing is at least the darn thing is actually running, and the smile on my son's face made it all worth while.  So no worries at all.  Thank you for the help, and helping so many others!