Help Need HO Scale Steam Locomotive that steams and whistles

[jward]

I would concur with doneldon. I build all my layouts out of white pine. a framework of 1x4 is plenty sturdy enough to walk on. buying the better grades of pine will lessen warpage. oak is too heavy and too hard to make a good table for railroad use. pine takes screws easily, and is hard enough to hold them well.

[Martha]

Hmmm don't know what happen to my last reply, oh well. I bought MDF for the frame work, hope it will work. I don't mind predrilling matter of fact I even counter sink the screws. Questions, foam or cork track-bed? Tips on Ballast? Can any dirt/gravel work? I am always on the hunt for free or cheap deals and I spotted across the street a pile of nice clean looking gravel, the kind they use for landscaping, so it got me to thinking about adding ballast. Foam risers. How would I know the incline I would like to do? I see they sell 4% incline, is that typical? and suggestions to save on the risers? I see they are 20-30 bucks. Heck I think I could buy foam someplace cheaper but then again not sure if I should or not. Thanks for the tip on the electrical go to guy. He will be hearing from me once I get this platform done. Gez seems I just did that a year ago! I just get new ideas and to be honest "Prairie" is so darn cool and just zips around that track even goes up and over my small incline with no effort at all, I think it deserves a much nicer track and layout to travel on. Oh I do have one concern, this loco has the two tiny wheels in the front that run inside the track, I am guessing to keep it on the track, it seems they are very temperamental and easily run off the tracks. Is this due to the track alignment or lack of good alignment? Are these something people remove because they seem to cause derailments? Tips, opinions, suggests are all greatly appreciated and I look forward to any and all comments. Oh do you have any videos of your lay out I could watch, I would love to see what you all do with your model railroading.

[Doneldon]

Hi, Martha-

I'll try to address your queries one by one.

First, the MDF. It will work just fine. The only real issue with it is its weight and that's something you only have to deal with twice a year -- before and after the holidays.

Next, roadbed. Everyone has a different opinion on this because there are several options. Cork is probably the most commonly used and it works just fine. If you decide on cork, don't get suckered in by the spendy turnout pieces. You can easily make your own turnout platforms from cork strips and no one will know the difference once you cover it with ballast. On the other hand, some folks don't use ballast with cork roadbed because they think it resembles ballast. I'll leave it to others to tell you about foam, pressed paper and tar-like materials.

Ballast. Several companies make scale ballast in various colors that resemble the different kinds of rock used be different railroads in various parts of the country. Clean sand will work just fine but it will look smaller than you would expect to see for ballast. Some people use aquarium gravel (avoid the neon sky blue pink, please) but it looks too large for HO unless you can source some which is a bit finer. Frankly, I'd just look on line and eBay to get some regulation scale ballast in a color you can stand.

No, four-percent grades are not usual and there's a good reason: four percent is very steep so you'll see your neat little Prairie struggling to get more than two or three cars up the hill. I strongly suggest that you keep grades as mild as possible, ideally no more than two percent. Sometimes that won't give you enough rise for one track to go over another. In that case, consider stretching out the grade as far as you can and see if you can split the grade by having the flyover track go up half of the vertical distance and the lower track go down to a low point just below the highest point on the upper track. (This will be difficult to do with the MDF platform but it can be done. Just be sure to reinforce the place where you cut the MDF away,)By the way, those foam grades are made so you can stretch them out, thus reducing the steepness of your grade. You can also build your grade with a wood subroadbed supported by progressively taller blocks.

The wheels on your Prairie should stay on the track. Some  model rails remove the spring and add some weight to the top of the truck to improve tracking. Do make sure that the truck swivels easily from side to side.

There are tons of functioning model railroads on You Tube.

Good luck!
                    -- D

[jward]

woodland scenics sells their risers in 2% 3% & 4% grades. the higher the number, the steeper the grade, and the less your locomotive will pull.

the following info, taken from the book "Atlas HO layouts for every space" will shed some light on the relationship between grade and pulling power....

on a 1% grade, rise per full (9") section of track is 3/32", your locomotive will pull 57% of what it pulls on level track.

for 2%, rise is 3/16" per section, pulling power 38%

for 3%, rise is about 1/4" per section, pulling power  25%

for 4%, rise is 3/8" per section. pulling power 17% or 1/6 what it pulls on level track.

grades above 4% are not recommended.

note that a standard 18r or 22r curve measures close to 9"  thus would count as a full section when planning your grade.

also note that you will need a minimum of 3" in rise for ofr track to bridge over another. that works out to 16 sections at 2%, 12 @ 3%, and 8 @4%.......those figures will help you to visualize your grades when looking at a plan on paper or computer.

[jbrock27]

M,  I hope the MDF will not be too heavy for you to lug around.  This is where plywood has an advantage-it has the strenghth w/o the weight of the dense MDF.  Also, MDF, like it's cousin, particle board, has a tendency to absorb moisture and warp (yes, I remember you are in NV), which plywood is more resistant to.
I used particle board for my first (4 x 8) layout and regret it bc it developed warping.  My choice of replacing it w/a plywood base was a much better choice than the particle board.
Consider what Jeff is saying about the number of track sections needed for the different grades and whether with the space you have, it will be enough for that number of track sections.  And re: 18" radius track and 22" radius track of the Atlas brand-just a side note-the 22"r sections are about 1/2" or so less in overall length than the 18"r. I could not understand at first why they would be, but they are when I put them up against each other.

[Doneldon]

MDF, like it's cousin, particle board, has a tendency to absorb moisture and warp (yes, I remember you are in NV), which plywood is more resistant to.
I used particle board for my first (4 x layout and regret it bc it developed warping.  My choice of replacing it w/a plywood base was a much better choice than the particle board.

Jim-

I'm a bit surprised to hear that you had a significant warping problem with MDF. It certainly will absorb some moisture but, in my experience, it stays much more dimensionally stable than does particle board. I agree 100% that particle board is a poor choice for a model railroad, but MDF seems to work. Were there any special circumstances when you had the warping MDF?
                                                                              -- D

[jbrock27]

Good Evening to ya Doc!

I did not say I used MDF; I used it's cousin, particle board.

-I used particle board for my first (4 x 8) layout and regret it bc it developed warping.

The circumstances were it was in the basement, which happened to be very dry, with a dehumidifier run in the summer and it was 30 + years old when it got replaced.  But it had developed the warp long since.  I agree with you that MDF does not absorb as much moisture as particle board, but plywood absorbs even less than either and is therefore the least prone to warping.  Plus for the same strength, it is lighter.

PS-Ever see a cheap entertainment center made of particle board, develop a warp over time? ;)

[Doneldon]

PS-Ever see a cheap entertainment center made of particle board, develop a warp over time?

Jim-

Yes, I have. A couple of times. One, or a set really, was in a typically damp basement. The particle
board had swollen up and blistered like fenders did back in the days before pickled steel. It was a
real mess.
                    -- D
                                                               

[jbrock27]

The first entertainment unit I ever bought, a cheapo, had, warped over a short time and was never in a basement or otherwise damp place.  It's the nature of the particle board.

[Martha]

Hey guys! I had a three day weekend and sad to say I spent 75% of the time being frustrated with my layout. I was trying to add the Bachmann bridge to it. It comes with those little plastic bars in different heights to make the gradual climb for the bridge. Great concept of an idea and probably works for 99% of the people who use it but for me, back luck Martha, I just couldn't get it to work out. Either it kept falling apart or the track kept separating and then I tried to solder the track joints. Anyone who reads my post know soldering is not my cup of tea. I did more melting of the foam deck or burning my arms as I laid them on the scorching track (yeah hope I didn't warp any of them) and the solder well it just evaporates into thin air. I got one good solder and spent hours on  the others and gave up. I'm a stubborn ole gal and don't like to admit defeat but I did raised the white flag on the soldering and that stupid bridge well it's packed nicely back in its little box it came in. I can't find my extra rail joiners, heaven knows where I "stored" them. I then decided well I will just redo the little ramp system I had last year it worked okay. All I wanted is it to raise up a little to go over my stream to the lake. Don't know how to calculate the grade but the center highest point of this raised ramp/bridge is maybe an inch to inch and a half and it is a very gradual slope to it. I thought of wasting my money on those foam risers from woodlands scenics and then changed my mind. I will just do what I did last year, used foam board from the dollar store and glue to make it. Didn't get too far with that job, then I said well maybe I can find some material of some kind to make track bed. Seemed pretty spendie to buy it. another half day or more wasted on that idea. Another white flag defeat. Part way into my three day weekend my boss stopped by and gave me a nice little Labor Day cash bonus which I wasn't expecting so naturally I ran to Ebay and ordered that track bed.  I got the Woodland Scenics track bed in the 24ft roll and to my happy surprise Omni Models (where I bought it from) distribution center is in Reno, so I got it the next day. I did the happy dance. Oh come on you guys know, that little dance you do when no one is looking cause you are happy. Seems easy enough to install, I say that so easily ha ha my luck I will need a 4 day weekend to install it! Of course I doubt I will like the gray foam showing so I guess ballast is next. Does it ever end working on these? I am laughing as I type that last sentence. I know my layout/village will continuously change year after year as I really do like to get frustrated and annoyed and throw a lot of white flags around!
The frame work. I did get the MDF as I said however after dismantling the layout I found most of the 1 by stuff I had already was okay and I just added more structure to it with the MDF and basically only added a small amount of weight to it. It is much sturdier now and still manageable for me. that took up a big chuck of my weekend too as I had to cut, attach, then re-glue the foam to the framework, my cat seemed quite upset there was this big thing laying in the middle of her living room floor with a table flipped upside down on it for weight, a sewing machine and books also used to weigh the foam down to the framework. But as cats go, she was only awake for 5 or 10 minutes before she went back to sleep and later upon waking simply ignored it and me.
Ballast question. I've seen how to on youtube to ballast, some seem quite complicated. Others pretty straight forward. My question, the rubbing alcohol water mix should be used? One of them said it helps make the elmers glue adhere better and dry faster. another question, is Woodlands Scenics ballast the only ballast you can use? What about the fine sand they sell to do sand art? anyone try that or familiar with that? Can you sift regular sand/fine gravel and use it? I hadn't thought much about ballast however now that I have the gray foam track bed on a winter white snow scene I think it might stick out and I doubt you can paint the track bed?
I saw in another post on this forum the discussion on the steam trains pros and cons. seem cons win out. I did specifically buy my Prairie because it steams now I don't know what to do. I think in my situation I would like it to steam only when someone comes by to see my Village, which might be twice this winter so I guess it won't mess things up to much? It's not like I am going to put that oil in the stack every time. Or does using it once or twice going to mess up the tracks? Oh speaking of tracks. back to ballast. won't the glue or alcohol mess up the tracks? seems both will get on the tracks. will all I have to do is just clean them? will the glue be hard to get off the tracks? I don't plan on smearing the tracks with the glue but it sure seems some glue may end up on them. None of the how to's discussed that part. What about the alcohol/water mix, won't that rust my tracks?
One last thing, it took all I had over this last weekend in between the frustration not to buy another complete Bachmann train set, it had probably ten cars, engine, track, some landscape/people all in boxes for 69.99 at a 2nd hand store. I still see that cute little plastic wrapped up package sitting on the shelf in the toy department. No telling if it worked however when someone keeps the boxes for these trains and the track what I could see looked in good shape. I would bet it was in good running order. I just couldn't justify buying it.
Well time to go and work on that track bed or at the very least take it out of the box it came in. Thanks all for advice and comments.

[jbrock27]

I will help you here where I can.
If your track rails are brass or nickel silver, the water/alcohol or dish liquid mix when ballasting will not harm the rails.  I would not use steel track for additional reasons than rust.  You are correct about great tutorials on YouTube about ballasting track.  Even though I have literature on the subject, there is one video on YouTube I found very step by step informative and plan on getting back to it when I go  to ballast our track.  Yes, you have to clean the tops of the rails off with a rag (carefully) or track block cleaner when done, very easy to do.  If you follow the instructions in the vids that are good on the subject, you should not have to do much cleaning of ballast off the rails after.  Did you know you could paint the track as well and clean any paint off the tops of the rails with a track cleaning block?  This should be done after any necessary soldering is done.  Some folks put some WAHL clipper oil on the tops of the rails first, this way no paint sticks and the oil can be wiped away when the painting is done.  This may work when ballasting as well.
Re: soldering track at the rail joiners-I have begun to do this extensively and found the more I do it, the better I get at it.  If you are melting ties I suggest a couple of things, ask a few questions: are you putting a "heat sink" on either side of the rail joiner when you go to solder it?  What I mean is something on either side to absorb the excess heat, such as small alligator clips on the rail to either side of the rail joiner.  Or, what I have seen on line is someone took a small sponge, cut the area out around where they needed to solder (which is the outside of the rail if you did not know)  wet the sponge and put it across the 2 track sections where they meet and are soldering together and the sponge served as a heat sink.  I use 2 metal clips or "jaws" that I took off ice fishing weights-they are spring loaded and a little bigger than an alligator clip.  These have worked well to absorb heat I don't want transferring to the plastic.  Be sure to clip to the rails and try not to touch any plastic.  I also put flux paste on the rails I am joining, and in the rail joiner before I solder.  This also makes it easy for the solder to flow and stick by cleaning the metal surfaces.  Be sure to wipe off excess paste or liquid flux when done soldering.  Also, what kind and wattage soldering device are you using?  This makes all the difference. 
It can be a frustrating process but when you get the hang of soldering, it is a great skill to have.
I am in fact currently soldering track sections together to avoid exactly what you have described is happening-the rails pulling apart-for a trestle grade I am putting on our layout.  I am soldering 3 track sections at a time to keep them from coming apart when I put the trestle piers on them.  So far it has worked and I am able to slide the piers around, without having the track come loose where they are joined at the rail joiners.
Is it possible that you do not have enough room (track sections) to utilize all the trestle pieces?  If so, it may still be possible to use some of them and the bridge section as long as you use the shorter piers and do not need the train to pass under the bridge section.
And no, work on a layout never seems to end   (at least for most people)
 

[jward]

when ballasting track, the glue goes between the ties where the ballast is, not on the rails. therefore, the glue won't interfere with the conductivity of the wheels and rails. the main thing you need to worry about is glue getting in the rail joiners or switchpoints and causing problems.be very careful around those spots and you should be fine. I use an old elmers glue bottle to apply a 50-50 mixture of glue & water, on ballast presoaked with alcohol applied with an eyedropper. 

[jbrock27]

This is the video I was referring to.  The most comprehensive one I have come across:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr_2EdbCRFU

Much better than trying to use typed words only to describe the process.

[Martha]

I realize the glue goes between the track but I know I will get some of it by accident on the rails. So I wanted to know what to clean the tracks with if and when the glue gets on it. I do have brass and nickel silver tracks so good to know rust won't be a problem. Would Goo Be Gone work to clean the tracks? I have heard of Walhl clipper oil. To answer the questions about wattage of the soldering iron it is a 30 watt, good to know about the alligator or sponge trick. I knew the rails should not get hot or extremely hot as it were. I didn't melt any ties but those rails sure got hot. Didn't know about the flux paste well I do remember something about it but it didn't come into play in my mind at the time! I swear that solder gun has it in for me! You are correct about it will get better, come to think of it, I have left over track I can practice on, I think the tip is to dirty too. I just need to get back on line and watch some how to's on it. refresh my memory. I hadn't heard if other sources of ballast can be used or just the Woodland stuff. I am thinking sifted sand/gravel might work but then again I don't know so that is why I ask. Jward, you said "on ballast presoaked with alcohol applied with an eyedropper" not sure what you are staying, you use the eye dropper with alcohol and drop the alcohol on to the track bed first? the one youtube showed using alcohol in a spray bottle and spraying the heck out of it first, is that what you are saying? Sorry just trying to get all the info I can on the subject.

Just as I was going to post this a new reply came in from jbrock27, excellent I will go check it out. Thanks!
Didn't get to work on it as I hoped to tonight but tomorrows Friday and the weekend is soon upon me. Can't wait.

[Doneldon]

Martha-

There are many companies which make scale ballast. In addition, you might find fine gravel at an aquarium store which will work. Just be careful hat the chunks aren't too large. Sand can work but it is usually to fine. It also raises the possibility of introducing organisms from the natural world into your model train world. Strained and inspected sand presents fewer problems than does dirt, but you might end up with a mold problem. Sand also adds weight pretty quickly.

Woodland Scenics has the largest array of ballast by far. It also sells its ballast in different size packages, with the cost per whatever decreasing significantly for the larger bottle. Other companies with reasonably priced ballast include Scenic Express, Bachmann, Noch and Model Power. I think Busch is kind of similar pricewise. There are other companies which cost more but might do the job if they offer the exact ballast you are looking for: Highball Products, Faller, Busch, Arizona Minerals and Joes. Hobbylinc.com has some ballast by JTT on sale this week.

Since this is a fanciful holiday layout, I'm wondering what clear crystalline ballast would look like. You might find some plastic gems at a place like Michaels which you can grind in a blender. Use clear and just a touch of blue or aqua and it could look like you ballasted your track with ice. Another possibility would be the tiny beads (glass at one time but I don't know if that's still the case) like what they use in paints for signs so they're easier to read at night. I suppose you could use "rubies and emeralds" but I think that might be too much.

You use the water/alcohol mix, plus just a touch of dishwashing soap (NOT for dishwashers) to dampen the ballast so the water/glue mix (also with a little soap) will flow into the ballast so it holds everything together. There is a significant possibility of parts of the ballast not being secured if you skip the prewetting or the use of some soap.

I don't think you need to be discourages about your stem loco. While the "smoke" feature hasn't been positively reviewed, including by me, there is no reason why you cannot run the steamer without smoke fluid. Just remember to turn the burner off when you aren't using it or it will burn out.

I do discourage you from buying train sets, regardless of their condition. Manufacturers were/are very cost conscious when it comes to train sets. That means they tried to put appealing but inexpensive components into the sets to attract people who were not otherwise model railroaders. Ideally, they would become ongoing customers who would purchase more expensive, better quality merchandise. But in the short run, low price, inexpensively manufactured products would support sales to first timers or to people with only a passing interest in model railroading. These economic and attraction motives are also why you might find some exciting, but generally not long lasting, features like log loaders or crane cars.

It sounds like you are making progress. Do keep us up to date.
                                                                                                -- D