Traction Tires

[chuff_n_puff]

I am having a problem with adding traction tires on a MTH K-4 without giving up continuity. From experience I have learned that the more wheels you have drawing power from the track, the smoother your unit runs, especially in DCC. When I replace the regular drive wheels with the traction wheels, that came with the unit, it starts skipping along and sometimes stopping. This is a real problem in my 6 and 8 feet tunnels. I have some small grades and it won't pull my track cleaner without spinning its wheels. When I put the old wheels back on, it runs fine. Is this why MTH doesn't put them on from the factory? They use the words, " if you want to pull stumps", then use the traction tires. What good is all that traction, if you are out of gas!

[Virginian]

Make sure they are a proper fit, i.e. almost flush with the wheel/tire.  And, clean the rest of your drivers or pick up points.  I do not know how many pick up points MTH uses, but I have traction tires on every loco I own that will take them, and I do not have any continuity issues.

[Atlantic Central]

I'm with Virginian, all my traction tired locos run just fine, but I don't know much about the MTH K4. Sounds like a problem with that loco, not the traction tires.

Sheldon

[lanny]

Virginian or Atlantic Central,

Any suggestions on how/what is needed to get traction tires on the Spectrum 2-8-0? Is is feasible?

Thanks!

lanny

[rogertra]

Virginian or Atlantic Central,

Any suggestions on how/what is needed to get traction tires on the Spectrum 2-8-0? Is is feasible?

Thanks!

lanny

You need specially made wheels to add (spit) traction tires.

I for one NEVER buy any loco with traction tires.  Awful things.

[Atlantic Central]

And I don't buy locos with DCC decoders and squalky sound systems, but some people love them.

To each his own.

I love my 80 car train pulling, traction tire equiped locos!

Sheldon

[rogertra]

And I don't buy locos with DCC decoders and squalky sound systems, but some people love them.

To each his own.

I love my 80 car train pulling, traction tire equiped locos!

Sheldon

DCC: - Don't have ot yet but I will when I rebuild the GER.

Sound: - Agreed.  EVERY sound system sounds like a 1960s transistor radio, no matter what people may say, including the (in the pocket of the advertisers) magazine reviewers.

Sheldon, a question.

Do you "operate" your railroad, as in using time-table or schedule and do you use any form or car forwarding system a la Tony Koester, for one?

I ask, because the vast majority of guys who "operate" their railroads, like I do, don't like traction tires.

[Jim Banner]

Traction tires - love them or hate them, there is no doubt that they do what they are supposed to.  Like rogertra, I like to operate my layout and traction tires would take away the excuse to double head and use pushers to get over the mountain grades.

My only suggestion to chuff_n_puff is to add pickups to his tender if traction tires interfere with good locomotive pickup.  Maybe Sheldon can tell us how many of this traction tire equipped locomotives have tender pickup as well.

As far as adding traction tires to a Consolidation goes, I think it would be relatively simple to modify existing wheels by cutting grooves in them on a lathe.  The hardest part might be locating suitable traction bands.  lanny, if you are interested, email me.  I can supply the wheels if you can supply the bands.

[Atlantic Central]

Roger,

Yes, myself, and most members of the local round robin group I belong to are very much into operation.

My layout is currently under construction, with only a small amout of trackage operational at present. A previous partly constructed plan was changed and a rebuilding is underway to allow the new layout to move in a few years when we retire.

Everybodies ideas on operation are different. In our group every layout reflects a different type of prototype and has a different style of operating session.

My layout will represent a small section of a large class I system, double track main line, in the mid Atlantic region, in September 1954. Like large railroads most traffic will come from urban centers via industrial trackage into a major yard. trains will be made up and leave that yard for points off the layout (stagging), and the opposite as well, trains from stagging will bring cars to the yard to be made into locals and delivered to the industies in the industrail areas.

What I will not have much of is a way freight covering the whole mainline doing pick ups and set outs. Big railroads don't really work that way.

The industrial areas will be mostly seperate from the main line.

Locos with traction tires:

BLI N&W Class A - pulls 70-80 cars up 1.8% grades - all tender wheels pick up - sound turned off

PCM Reading T1 - pulls 60 cars - all tender wheels pickup - no sound version

Proto 0-8-0 (new release) - pulls 40 cars - all tender wheels pickup

All these locos run great and have been run on friends layouts, no problems.

Sheldon

[Atlantic Central]

Roger,

Why would traction tires and operation be opposing ideas?

I simply like to get as close to prototype train lengths as is possible/practical. In my case that means 30-50 car freight trains. That is actually very prototypical for my region/era/type of road.

When complete the mianline of my layout will be almost eight scale miles and 30-50 car trains look right at home.

But a 4-8-4 or 3 EMD F units pulling 12 cars looks silly and does not represent what I am modeling.

Lots of my steam powered trains are double headed, and they are long enough to look like they need it.

I have seen your pictures and your modeling is superb. But not everyone wants to model a small short line. Some of us want to capture the feel of the big time lines.

So, for me that means double track, 10 car passenger trains pulled by two PA's, two 2-8-8-2's pulling 50 hoppers, a 4-8-2 with an express freight of 10 piggybacks and 20 more box cars, etc, etc.

It also means an 8 track, 24' long, double ended clasification yard with a seperate 4 track piggyback yard, a 2' deep x 18' long water front industrial area, and several other "belt line" type industrial areas somewhat removed from the main line. Not to mention the 6 track though passenger station with coach yard and the engine terminal with the 180' turntable and 12 stall roundhouse.

And interchanges (to stagging) with three other railroads and modeling of a short portion of one of those (the Western Maryland).

And it means a continuious mainline with thru stagging for about 25 trains.

I'm not bragging, and I don't have all this built yet, but I do have the space and resources for it.

And it is just as valid a modeling goal as the point to point short line (which one of my previous layouts was by the way).

And so I like modern traction tires.

Sheldon

[Virginian]

I like traction tires because they make a model steam loco more able to replicate the feats of the prototype.  I do not need an excuse to double head when I want to.  I just do it.  A Y6b leading a Class A with a string of hoppers just looks good occassionally, even though either could handle the entire train alone.
Unfortunately many models that come with traction tires experience difficulties if the owners do not take precautionary steps, and traction tires in general end up with a bad rap.  Also, if you are in the Wahl clipper oil fraternity, you will not like traction tires.  However, I fit them closely and glue them in the grooves and have very very few issues, ever.  I learned on a Riv 2-8-8-2; the OLD model.  It threw a tire 25 years ago, and I bought three packages of Stewart assorted replacements to be ready for long term issues.  I figured out how to eliminate issues with that Riv, and have only used one more tire in the interveneing years.
I certainly do not care whether you like them or hate them, and whether you use them or not is also assuredly your choice, but please do not categorically blame traction tires for ills that are not their fault.  Whatever you do, enjoy, and good luck.

[rogertra]

Thanks for the reply Sheldon.

My "issues" with traction tires are based on (admittedly old) experience of 15 or more years ago.

-  Locos with traction tires eventually develope a "waddle" caused by the tire wearing down with use.

-  Traction tires expand over time and usage and get thrown from the wheel rim.

-  Finding replacing traction tires 15 to 20 years after the initial purchase is a hit and miss affair.

-  Traction tires usually prevent the driving wheels from spinning when the load is too great for the locomoitve to handle, thus leading to earlier motor burn out and failure.  Spinning wheels save motors.

-  Very slow speed operation, as when yard or industry switching, can be an issue with traction tires.

I understand your position on running very long trains, 50 cars or more, but on an operations oriented model railway, how on earth do your operators have time to make up and break up 50 car trains using any form of waybill system?  It takes nearly as long to make up or break down a 50 car model train as it does a real one which is why (most?) operations oriented model railroaders run 20 to 25 car trains as a max.   We don't have two or three real time hours to make up or break down a 50plus car train.

Not to say your not having fun doing what you like to do.  More power to you.

[Atlantic Central]

Roger,

As Virginian has pointed out the maintence issues are not really that bad. I know years ago they could be problematic, worked in a hobby shop. And if they do fail in 25 years (assuming I'm still here) I have the non tired drivers to reinstall - I do like the idea that they come with both.

And just because a loco has traction tires, does not mean you try to push it to extreems.

In 35 years of HO modeling I have never burned up a motor, with or with out traction tires.


As to the oerating thing, most of us modeling large railroads do not use indvidual car orders with all those fussy cards for each car. Because large industries are often modeled, cars can be moved in blocks.

Six box cars of auto parts into the assembly plant, 12 box cars of finished autos out, etc. This is done with a single page train order discribing your setouts/pickups in a list.

There are industries that get just one car, but as I said, they are handled by a local out of the yard, not a mainline train.

Mainline trains are made of these blocks of cars. Our normal weekly operating session is from 7:30 to to about 10:00 and it usually takes most of that time to handle the orders fro the night.

Some mainline trains are through trains needing only to set out or pick part of their consist or simply get their power changed or serviced.

Passenger trains are "operated" just as much as freights. Baggage, express and mail cars are switched, power and diners serviced, cosists turned, etc.

But we don't always try to do "everything" at every session.


Just a few thoughts on what we do here. Keep up the excelent modeling.

Sheldon

[lanny]

As far as adding traction tires to a Consolidation goes, I think it would be relatively simple to modify existing wheels by cutting grooves in them on a lathe.  The hardest part might be locating suitable traction bands.  lanny, if you are interested, email me.  I can supply the wheels if you can supply the bands.

Thank you very much Jim,

I really appreciate your very kind offer and will contact you off line IF I can locate the recent 'tracton tire' mfg that I saw advertise an assortment of tires for diesels and steam. I didn't think much about it at that time so didn't save the ad. But if I find it, I'll surely be in contact with you.

I've added all the extra weight to my Spectrum #908 kit bash, and it still will only pull 3 - 5 cars up my 'too steep' grades. I suppose that enough a 'way freight' that will be 'dropping' and 'picking up' loads on its run, but I would like to up that load capacity a bit if possible.

This has been a very interesting discussion ... as usual, one in which I've learned a lot.

lanny