Blue point switch machines

[Chris G]

Hello all,
I am building a shelf layout and am intending to use Blue point switch machines. I am using Peco Electrofrog points. I will modify them to make "DCC friendly". I believe the Blue points will also power the frog.
Does anyone have any comments on the Blue point switch machines as I will need to install 40 off eventually.
Thanks Chris

[John in Santa Cruz]

   I have installed a couple on my layout just to check them out and am
impressed; you do however have some restrictions as to where you
can use them due to having to get a pushrod to go to them without  too
many sharp changes in direction. It is alot easier to get an electrical wire
to these hard to reach places (but you can always use a regular switch
machine here and there as needed). Use the nylon r/c pushrods that they
recommend in the instructions.

-John
   

[railtwister]

I have installed six of these units so far on my On30 modules which use Peco Oe 16.5mm turnouts, and I really like them. One of the big pluses is that there is a lot of "trick" hardware out there in the R/C dept of your local hobby shop that will aid in doing custom installations of the pushrod linkages. These things are perfect for modules or shelf type layouts and I highly recommend them. For mine, I used the next larger size of music wire to connect the BluePoints to the turnout, since the Pecos come with their own over-center springing arrangement, and I didn't want to disable that. The only problems I can see, would be if you are using 2" foam for your shelves you may have to devise some way to get the BluePoint closer to the bottom of the turnout to increase the available pressure at the switchpoints (or go to larger spring wire). My road bed and sub-roadbed only totals 1/2' on my modules, so this wasn't a big problem for me. At first, I did have a problem paying over $10 for a MANUAL switch machine, but that can be overcome by shopping around, and also buying them multi-packs instead of single units. For 40 turnouts, I would suggest trying the 10 packs!
Regards, Bill Nielsen - Oakland Park, FL

[Chris G]

Thanks for the reply guys , I'll go ahead with the Bluepoints.

Railtwister, I will be using Peco SL- E596 electrofrogs but am not sure about modifying them to make DCC friendly. The way the Pecos are wired appear to power the frog correctly for the selected route. I can't see that there is a possibility of a short either.
I can see that poor contact over time at the switch and stock rail may be a problem. But if I wire in jumpers to solve this I will need to isolate the frog.

What have you done to resolve this ? Isolated the frog and wired in jumpers with a power routing switch ? or left as is ?

I appreciate yours or anyone else's advice.

Thanks Chris

[Jim Goodridge]

Quote "I will be using Peco SL- E596 electrofrogs but am not sure about modifying them to make DCC friendly. The way the Pecos are wired appear to power the frog correctly for the selected route. I can't see that there is a possibility of a short either."

Excellent question Chris,  I am wondering the same thing, hopefully someone can shed some light on this.

Best
Jim

[Chris G]

G'day Jim,
I think I know what to do now. I got a reply on AMR forum that put 2 n 2 together.
There are two areas to consider. One is poor electrical supply and the other is shorts at the frog.
Peco have the short aspect resolved as far as I can see but the electrical contact is still a problem.
However when you fix the elctrical supply problem you cause a problem with the Peco frog set up and so have to modify that.

Electrical supply resolution.
Basically over time you can lose electrical contact between the switch rail and stock rail. To resolve this you wire in jumpers from the stock rails to the fixed part of the switch rail. You then wire another set of jumpers across the joint in the switch rail. This way you get permanent power and not have to rely on the switch rail / stock rail contact aspect for power.
This however will create a short in the frog.
To solve this problem you have to isolate the frog totally.

Peco frog resolution.
Isolate the frog by cutting thru both switch rails and both rails of each track leading off from the switch.
You now have to get power to the frog to suit the route selected.
If using Blue points they have this switch built into the unit which changes the power to the frog as you throw the switch. You basically wire your track feeder to one side of the Blue point contacts then wire from the other side of the Blue point contacts to the frog.

Some one may have a different slant on it buts thats the best I can make of it. If Peco resolved the power supply problem none of this would be necessary I guess.

Hope it helps you out.

:)Thanks Chris. 

[railtwister]

Sorry not to have replied sooner, but I've been out of town.

As far as making the Peco On30/Oe16.5mm turnouts "DCC-Friendly", the only thing I've done so far has been to put insulated railjoiners on both legs of the frog (if it's a stub siding, you only need insulate the mainline side) and power the frog using the contacts on the Bluepoint. This is actually redundant as long as the Peco's contacts work properly (which they seldom do after the turnout is installed, painted and ballasted - hence the need for redundancy). The frog is wired to either one of the center studs, and the power from the two main rails to the other studs on the same side as the one connected to the frog. I used an Ohm meter to be sure I got the right polarity, before turning on the power, since the Amps a DCC system uses could cause things to get pretty hot if there was a short and the breaker didn't kick out. So far, no further mods have been needed, in our module group we've run most all available Bachmann On30 locos, Broadway C-16's, and several various kitbashed units using HO mechanisms with no problems. Not sure about the big K's from Mountain/Precision Scale though, they may require cutting a gap in the closure rails between the points and frog and running a jumper from the stock rails to the closure rails on the point side of that gap. Then again, from what I've heard, the K's are not happy on less than 26" radius curves, my modules use mostly 24" radius, but one module does have a couple of tight spots with some 22" radius. The Peco turnouts use 24" radius on their curved sides and their Wye. I'm told that if the curve is short and doesn't extend beyond the limits of the turnout (roughly 12-13 degrees), the K's can usually squeek thru, but they may have a problem with larger segments of curve. We haven't tried them on my modules, because I'm sure they would be unhappy with those few 22"radius spots!

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Bill Nielsen
Oakland Park, FL

[Chris G]

Hello Bill,
Thanks for the input.
Correct me if I am wrong but I take it that when you power the frog thru the Blue point you are actually powering the switch rails, closure rails and frog with the same polarity ?
You only need to isolate the frog then if you get a short running a large loco thru the points and it shorts out by having wheels of the opposite polarity touching the switch rails, closure rails or frog ?

I've now got my blue points in hand and do not want to do more than I need to get good operation. Hence my cautious approach and lots of confirmations.

Send me an email if you lik and I will reply with a photo of the points I am using just in case there is a difference.

Thanks Chris

[railtwister]

Hello Bill,
Thanks for the input.
Correct me if I am wrong but I take it that when you power the frog thru the Blue point you are actually powering the switch rails, closure rails and frog with the same polarity ?
You only need to isolate the frog then if you get a short running a large loco thru the points and it shorts out by having wheels of the opposite polarity touching the switch rails, closure rails or frog ?

I've now got my blue points in hand and do not want to do more than I need to get good operation. Hence my cautious approach and lots of confirmations.

Send me an email if you lik and I will reply with a photo of the points I am using just in case there is a difference.

Thanks Chris

Hi Chris,

Yes, that's correct, on my modules, the BluePoints are powering the frog, and the frog feeds the closure rails and the points. The main stock rails are powered by the main feeder wires, not the Bluepoints, and except in the case of the Auto-reverser section, their polarity doesn't change. This does leave the possibility for a wheel's back surface to touch the open point as the wheel passes through, thereby creating a momentary short which, using DCC, would be enough to cause the breaker to shut down, but this hasn't happened yet. The clearance between the open point and the stock rail is pretty generous, so I don't think it's a problem, but as I said, we haven't tested any of the MMI K's which have a long wheelbase that may cause a  problem. Of course, if you gap the closure rails close to the frog, and add jumper wires from each closure rail to the adjacent stock rail, making the points always the same polarity as the stock rails, you would eliminate the possibility of a point to wheel back short altogether. I didn't, because I was working under a deadline to have the module operational for a show, and I figured with small radius curves I probably wouldn't be able to run anything that would cause a problem, anyway. At the time I built the first module, which is an equilateral wye mounted on a hexagonal table less than 36" across,  the biggest locos available were able to traverse an 18" radius. Since space was an important consideration, I used 22" radius for the curved track between the 3 Peco "wye" turnouts (approximately 35 degrees). I was a little concerned when I purchased one of Bachmann's Forneys sometime later, but fortunately, it seems to run OK through the wye module. If I had it all to do over again, I would use at least 24" radius as a minimum, possibly even 26" or 28". I also might use Micro Engineering turnouts since I'm not fond of the look of the stubby Peco ties and the "brassy" color of their code 100 rail, but operationally, however, I'm happy with the Peco turnouts and the BluePoints. I would use the BluePoints again, no matter which brand of turnouts I choose.

Regards,
Bill Nielsen
Oakland Park, FL

[Chris G]

Hello Bill,
Thanks for your reply. I will move ahead with confidence now.

All the best,
Chris