Williams O gauge 60 ft passenger cars 468390 & 468391

[zephyr guy]

Can you tell me when these 60 ft passenger cars were produced (468390 & 468391) and are there any photos of these cars, such as in an old catalog that might be on line? I am really interested in the colors used on the Burlington set.

Are there any similar cars that I can view from other catalogs or on line?

Thank you,

RAY

[WKT58]

A Google search of "Williams 468390" comes up with a hit for an eBay auction item; they are a 4-car set of 60' Burlington Madisons cars marked "Crown Edition."   If I recall correctly, "Crown Edition" would make these cars of mid-1980's vintage.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Williams-modern-O-Burlington-60-Madison-M1033-four-car-set-sealed-468390-/151187989022

The 2-car add-on set may be found here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Williams-modern-O-Burlington-60-Madison-M1033CC-two-car-add-on-sealed-468391-/161173795807

[zephyr guy]

Thanks for the reply. I did see these but the photos of the cars make it difficult to see what they are really like.

Do they have metal trucks and couplers, what does the paint scheme look like, etc.

So if anyone has information on these cars, I would appreciate it.

RAY

[phillyreading]

These do not look like Crown Edition boxes, maybe before or just after the Crown Edition, making them Williams Reproduction series time frame. Second reason that I say not a Crown Edition is the number of passenger cars,  usually five or six with C. E. sets. Also the six digit numbers sound more like WBB numbers then Williams before Bachmann. Seems that the six digit numbers were used mainly by Williams in their catalog and not given to the actual sets or put on the boxes.
I am not trying to knock the quality but just give a more accurate time frame to these passenger cars.
I have two Crown Edition sets of passenger cars, one is the Santa Fe "El Capiton" and the other a Reading Company "King Coal" set, both came with six passenger cars. The Santa Fe passenger cars have a wire that runs between the two center roller pick-ups for a more constant lighting effect.

Lee F.

[WKT58]

The 4-car set on eBay is of more recent Williams (pre-Bachmann vintage), with red boxes:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Williams-modern-O-Burlington-60-Madison-M1033-four-car-set-sealed-468390-/151187989022

The 2 add-on cars have silver boxes marked "Crown Edition," which are older
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Williams-modern-O-Burlington-60-Madison-M1033CC-two-car-add-on-sealed-468391-/161173795807

The Burlington Madison cars had an olive green paint scheme.  These photos are from a different auction that has ended:

http://p2.la-img.com/227/48412/22401784_1_l.jpg

I have over half a dozen Williams Madison passenger cars sets, of all vintages.  Only the 1970's versions have plastic trucks with unflanged plastic "blind" center wheels and non-centering plastic couplers.   Metal trucks with three sets of fast-angled wheels with metal self-centering couplers became standard features on Williams Madison cars from the mid-80's and later.  These Burlington cars should fit the latter description.

[phillyreading]

I have two different makes of the same style Reading Company "King Coal" passenger cars, both have Crown Edition on the boxes. The older set has plastic couplers that don't open and blind or unflanged plastic wheels in the center of the three axle set-up on the trucks. The second or newer set of C. E.passenger cars has all three wheels the same metal flanged and opening couplers that look like K-Line truck assemblies.

Is there a cure for the passenger cars to stay on the track? They even derails on straight tracks. Or do I have to swap out the truck assemblies to newer ones?
I am using 027 track and Gargraves track and curves. Only the newer style C. E. passenger cars will hold the track.
I have added some weight to the cars thinking that they were too light to hold the track and that don't help either.

Lee F.

[Joe Satnik]

Lee,

Check the gauge of the wheels, as well as the gauge of your track:

http://nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-4.3%202010.02.24.pdf

http://nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-3.3%202010.02.24.pdf

Also check for smoothness on the inside of your rail joints/pins.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[phillyreading]

Joe S.

I will check the truck assemblies as I have no problems with anything else on the same track as these run on, so I think the track is good. They have the older style plastic coupler that don't open and plastic center wheelsets, and have free rolling wheels like the postwar Lionel cars have. I have tried a couple of ideas but nothing works so far so I am leaning toward truck & coupler replacement, or having a set of shelf kings if parts are too costly to change out the set of six cars.
I have added some magnets to the bottom of the frame on each car, removed some plastic from around the coupler area, cleaned and serviced the axles. Still they derail on the long straight sections.

Lee F.

[Joe Satnik]

Lee,

I wonder if it isn't string-lining on the curve, then you just notice it when it reaches the long straight.

Does it consistently derail to the inside of the curve? 

Get another person (set of eyes) so you can watch both sides of the consist when it comes around the curve to your long straight.

Note exactly where it starts to derail, and to which side.   

Another experiment:

Tie couplers together with a bread tie, or some string, with some space between the coupler hands, so the couplers aren't rigidly holding each other.  Note if that improves performance. 

It's tough when all of your cars are light.  If only one was, then you could move it to the back of the train.   

Joe Satnik

[phillyreading]

Joe,

Thanks for your help Joe, and please read this carefully.
It derails before it ever goes into a curve. Here is the situation; it has derailed so I put the car back on the track and start it down the straight section once again and it derails within two feet of going down a straight section and no curves around to interfere with. More info I am using a Williams GP-9 with these Williams passenger cars.
That is why I am going to see about changing out the truck assemblies and get it fixed or make them shelf kings.

Lee F.

[Joe Satnik]

Lee,

Derailments on a straight are most likely from a wheel flange hitting a defect in the rail,

climbing up on that defect,

then rolling across the top of the rail to fall on the ties on the outside of the rail. 

It's possible that defect climbing derailments might be enhanced by wheels being out of gauge wide, or tracks being out of gauge narrow. 

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[r0gruth]

Lee,

Does it derail  at the same place every time or at different places?
Try rolling one car at a time along the track without a loco.Try each
car separately to see if only certain ones derail.Add one car at a time
using an elimination process to maybe find the problem.Check,as
someone mentioned above,the gauge of the track and the gauge of
the wheels.Small variations in the track gauge seem to be more
tolerable than small variations in wheel gauge.

[phillyreading]

It has to be the truck assemblies on the passenger cars as no other rolling stock or engine has any problem on that track layout.

Roger, it derails wherever it wants to derail, and it happens with each(one at a time) of four or five different cars at different places.

Joe Satnik, I sent you a private message via gmail.

Lee F.

[WKT58]

New Madison passenger trucks from Bachmann run about $20 each.

[GG1onFordsDTandI]

Im curious Lee..Any difference in performance between the round tube of 0-27, and the T of GG?

And my stab in the dark...If the couplers "clenched" fit are too tight, and/or trucks are too tight to the frame, it wont allow "rolling" along wavy or listing track, and wheels then will lift easy. "Flash" in coupler "pockets" has caused this lift by binding too. I just went through "the lack of roll" bit again recently with some tinplate streamliner cars.