Grandfather looking for help desgning layout for grandson

[hhartman]

Howdy All,

I'm giving my 5 year old grandson his first train set for Christmas, a Bachman HO "Challenger" .  The set comes with twelve 18"R EZ Track sections (one of which is a terminal track) to make a simple 36" circle.  What additional track sections would I need to turn it into a figure 8?  To keep the layout compact, I figure on using a 45 or 60 deg crossing.  The track will not be permanently mounted at this time so an up-and-over is not really practical.

Thanks!

Harvey

[Joe Satnik]

Dear Harvey,

Here is a recipe that isn't geometrically perfect, (1/5 of an inch off) , but should work.  

20 ea. #44501 or #44580 bulk 18"R-30 degree curves (you already have 12, add 8 ea.*)  

(*Option:  add 7 curves plus 1 ea. #44502 curved terminal re-railer instead to have a power connection on both sides of the crossing.)

4 ea.* #44511 or #44581 bulk 9" straights

(*Different option, 3 ea. straights plus 1 ea. #44510 straight terminal re-railer instead of the curved re-railer option.)

1 ea. #44541 60 degree x 3" crossing.  

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

Edit: Add layout diagram - 40" x 82" table top needed

[hhartman]

Excellent!

Thanks Joe.

Harvey

[show33]

Joe:
Apologies if this hi-jacks Harvey's original thread.
A total rookie question for you...could you explain having a power connection on both sides of the connection? How do you do that, and what are the advantages?
Many thanks

[jbrock27]

Joe is free to correct me if I am wrong show, but what I believe he is saying/suggesting is to have 2 power terminal tracks, one on either side of the X simply to deliver power in 2 different locations.  Much like "feeder wires" you can read about.   Advantage: it helps to deliver consistent power throughout the layout.  Sometimes, when power is fed to the track at only 1 location, the track sections further away from that 1 location, don't aways get the same amount of current.  I believe the physics of it is greater distance, equals greater resistance to the flow of electricity. 
This is noticeable when you keep the power pack throttle setting in the same spot and the loco runs fine until it gets far away from where the terminal track is, and then it slows down some.
I hope this helps.

[Joe Satnik]

Hi, show33.

Rail joiners get old, loose, dirty or oxidized over time, causing poor (high resistance) electrical connections between track pieces.  

Symptoms are that your train will slow down or stop on the far side of your layout from your single terminal re-railer.  

Paralleling or splicing in a second set of wires and and connecting it

to the terminal re-railer on the other side of the layout will add another

electrical path from your power pack, making your track's electrical supply more reliable.



The only caution is that both connections need to match polarities with each other:

With no locos or cars on your layout, connect (only) one red cable's rectangular connector to a terminal re-railer.  

Turn on and turn up the speed on your power pack.  

Barely and quickly touch the other rectangular connector to the other terminal re-railer's posts.  

If there are no sparks, plug it in the rest of the way.  

If there are sparks, twist the connector over 180 degrees (which changes its polarity), then plug it in.  (There should be no sparks.)

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

Edit: Added Bold to "match polarities"

 

[show33]

Thanks Joe - that makes perfect sense.

So, two electrical paths coming from one power source.

Does that mean the power going to each terminal re-railer is reduced or does the same current still go to both?

[jbrock27]

The same show.
Do you know what "suitcase" connectors are? And how to use them?

Or for that matter, a "terminal block"?

I guess by Joe's post, I understood what he was suggesting 

[Jerrys HO]

The same show.
Do you know what "suitcase" connectors are? And how to use them?

Or for that matter, a "terminal block"?

I guess by Joe's post, I understood what he was suggesting 

Mr. Brock what does it matter if Show knows how to use them or not? He is using a powered terminal track, where is the need for such items on that small of a layout?

Jerry

[jbrock27]

Hello J.B.  How are you?   I hope you are having a good day.  No need to be so formal; you don't need to call me "Mr."
I don't know why you are asking me this question since I am responding to show's questions about why use more than 1 terminal track to power a layout.  You may have me at a disadvantage by being more familiar with show and what he has for his layout than I.  I admit I have not gleaned all of his posts to get that understanding.  I am sorry I do not know his level of experience.  I saw his questions and was looking to be of assistance where I can.  I thought I had provided him an answer to his first question, but I guess Joe felt the need to repeat the reasons an hour afterwards.

I believe you misunderstand my 2nd post to show.
I am telling him the power delivered to both terminal tracks is the same.  
I have asked him those 2 questions in order to find out if he is is familiar with those 2 items.  Reason is 1) if he is, I can assist in telling him how to set up 2 terminal tracks to feed off his 1 power supply.  2) if he is not familiar with them, I would go forward with describing what they are and how to go about using them.  You see, depending on his answer, it will dictate how much further info I will need to provide.  The need to provide additional information to him could be short and sweet or may require more detailed information.   I am gladly willing to provide additional detail.

I think you should ask Joe why he recommended 2 terminal tracks since it was he that recommended it for this size layout.

[Jerrys HO]

Hi Jim doing great, hope you are too!
I'm sorry if you think I misunderstood you.

Show33,
to elaborate on why Jim was asking about the suitcase connectors and terminal blocks is that instead of purchasing the red cable by Bachmann you can easily splice into your existing red wire but then you would have the problem of no connector to plug into the other terminal track.
There are other options a lot cheaper than purchasing another terminal track and red cord and the easiest way is to purchase powered rail joiners at your local hobby shop or make your own by soldering wires to the joiners yourself. As Joe stated make sure the polarity is correct.

Harvey, ( the original poster )
all this great info will work for you also.

Jerry

[jbrock27]

You are correct Jerry in the understanding of the concept of why I brought up the suitcase connectors and terminal strip, but I am not sure you are correct in what you say about their intended applications.  I do not know what kind of power supply show uses, do you?  
This is why I had asked him the question and was waiting for his answers.  My plan was to proceed from there, once I had more information from him.  I would need to know what he is using for the power supply before I could say how to apply the use of the suitcase connectors or terminal strip or whether they could even be used.  

Also, your suggestion assumes (or perhaps you know ?) that show has the ability to solder.  I do not know if he does or does not.  I do recall him saying recently he was basically, "just starting out" or "just getting back"  something to that effect.  Again, this is why I was looking to hear back from him, but instead heard from you.

[Jerrys HO]

Jim

I do not know what kind of power supply show uses, do you? 

Maybe you can further my education. DC and DCC both have a positive and a negative side correct? What other types are used that have a different configuration of power?

I would need to know what he is using for the power supply before I could say how to apply the use of the suitcase connectors or terminal strip or whether they could even be used.   

Still don't get where this is going. Suitcase connectors are used to attach one wire to another they don't care what type is giving power to them or do they?

Also, your suggestion assumes (or perhaps you know ?) that show has the ability to solder.  I do not know if he does or does not.

Ahhhh! your correct I don't know his ability to solder but he did say in his first post...

As a little background, I grew up with HO trains and have been itching to get back into it for a while.

so one would assume he has some knowledge of it and if he did not I am sure he would tell us.

I was looking to hear back from him, but instead heard from you.

Don't worry it won't happen again?
By the way I believe his post was directed to Joe and you took over.

Sincerely Jerry

[Jerrys HO]

I am not sure of your first question.  I think we are talking about 2 different things:  I was referring/asking about the kind of power source show uses.  For example: MRC, Bachmann, Athearn, not whether he uses DC or DCC.  I still don't know as I type this post.  I could be wrong but knowing that would dictate on how to instruct on wiring from one power source to more than one piece of track.

Still don't understand what  the powerpack has to do with running feeders, that is why I stated you could further my education. I really want to know as I see no relationship between the two other than one supplies power and the other directs flow. Is there something else?

I don't see where show mentions soldering.  Can you point me to that?

Correct again. I never said he knew how, I was assuming since he had previous ho background. ( you know what they say made an $%# out of u and me. In your eyes its just me)

On a technical point, I don't see that show actually directed his question toward Joe as opposed to in general.

Joe:
Apologies if this hi-jacks Harvey's original thread.
A total rookie question for you...could you explain having a power connection on both sides of the connection? How do you do that, and what are the advantages?
Many thanks

I think it's great we can all help in one way or another but my main concern was the way you stated if he knew what they were and how to use them. Sounded harsh and degrading.

I value your responses as much as anyone else and have responded to your posts as well as you have mine.

Jerry

Please let me know the answer to the first question that still has me pulling on my grays.

[jward]

Thanks Joe - that makes perfect sense.

So, two electrical paths coming from one power source.

Does that mean the power going to each terminal re-railer is reduced or does the same current still go to both?

here is a little electrical theory to help explain things a bit. ohm's law, the foundation of electrical theory, states voltage is current (amps) times resistance (ohms).......thus, adding an additional feeder theoretically reduces resistance by half, and in theory increases the amps. in practice, the locomotive's motor determines the current needed, with small current increases due to resistance in the rails. adding the second feeder minimizes those increases, and the redundancy of having two different sets of feeders greatly increases the overall reliability of the circuit.

the total current in the circuit divides between the two sets of feeders, according to the resistance from power source to the locomotive in each of the possible current paths. thus, when the locomotive gets closer to one set of feeders, current increases in that feeder and decreases in the other. the amount of current in each feeder is constantly changing as the locomotive moves around the track.