Slight derailment issues

[Doneldon]

Lonnie-

There actually were many,many 0-8-0s although they weren't simply Connies which lost their pony trucks.

The issue isn't simply insufficient weight in the front end; it's specifically a lack of weight or spring pressure on the pilot truck. Years ago, when many (most?) steam engines were brass, this wasn't much of a problem because the brass truck and metal wheels and axlewere heavy enough to hold the pilot truck on the rails. Some of those old locos also had springs so they tracked pretty well, at least in that regard. Today's plastic trucks and wheels just don't have the brawn to adhere well to the tracks. That's why so many need a bit of weight.


Jeff-

As I'm sure you know, it cab be very difficult to see exactly where something is derailing because the loco or rolling stock itself blocks the view. In my experience, this is especially true with locomotives because we can't push them through a turnout due to fact that their wheels don't turn except under power and it's usually too much of a pain in the patoo to disengage the drive train just to push the loco through the offending turnout. I purchased one of Micro-Mark's lucite flatcars which I find very useful for inspecting suspected track problems.


jb-

I agree about the utility of the NMRA track standards gauge. I think I measure with it more than any other tool except a tape measure.

                                                                                                                                                                  -- D

[ebtnut]

The wheels being out of gauge is the first item on the checklist for this type of problem.  If you don't have access to a caliper and/or until you can obtain an NMRA gauge, you might try holding the pilot truck wheels up against the wheels of the diesel flange to flange and see there is any visible difference, either too wide or too narrow.  The fact, as I read things, that the steamer is the only culprit pretty much exempts the turnouts themselves from being the issue. 

[jbrock27]

Thanks for the info Doc on the pilots.  Yes, I have found the Gauge indispensable and questioned why I did not purchase one much sooner!  That and the Kadee coupler Height Gauge are 2 of my best "train tools".

Sounds like Blind Squirrel might have been onto something here

[jward]

jb'
the  derailment problem at the points is common more because most manufacturers do not make their switchpoints sharop enough, or hide them from the wheels.    building my own track I can eliminate this problem by a: filing my points sharp enough to cut my finger and b: filing a notch in the stock rail for the point to hide in.

it has been my experience that most out of the box switches have blunt ends on the points that need to be beveled, no notch in the stock rail, and possibly loose points which flop around on the throwbar.

don,
finding track defects my way requires a bright light, and running the locomotive back and forth through the problem area slowly. with the wheels well lit, you can often see the flanges climb the rail. at that point I've found there is almost always a problem like narrow guage, or a twist in the track. another problem arises from burrs on the rail, which you sometimes find om the ends of the track sections. for this reason, I always lightly file the ends of every piece of rail before it is laid down. it only takes a couple of seconds to do a section of track, and greatly lowers the derailment potential.

[8stargazer]

I finally got to examine the situation this evening since my grandson went home and I didn't have to entertain him while the train was running.  Here is what I discovered.  It went around all the turnouts quite well for about 3 rounds.  It then derailed on the 4th pass around.  I got it going again then diverted it to the lower level toward the back, where I have an access area from below.  It derailed on the only turnout there and here is what I discovered.  As I got it back on the track and without powering it up again, I slid it back and forth over the turnout.  It was on the straight section of the turnout.  And even thought the 8 wheels don't move freely, they will slide on straight track.  I noticed that it was like hitting a bump when it crossed  over the frog, which I think I'm correct in the term frog.  It is that black plastic area in the middle of the turnout that allows the wheels to 'jump' over the merge.  I noticed the main wheels were causing the problem, not the 2 guide wheels in the front.  They simply floated over it.  As someone said earlier, it is difficult to see clearly with the HO size and all.

I removed the loco and noticed there is significant 'play' in the 1st, 2nd, and 4th wheel from the front to back.  The third wheel didn't have quite as much play and I determined that it was the actual drive wheel (Am I correct.  I put the loco back on the track and slid it over the turnout again and with a flashlight, I noticed the front - main wheel wasn't seating in the groove of the frog for the wheels to travel over.  I pressed it toward me from the other side and it went through smoothly.  I'd say the play is about 1/8" - 3/16".    The loco went around quite smoothly after that, but it eventually derailed again, which would make sense with going through curves and so forth.   At least I've identified the problem. 

In the long run, I can probably deal with this time to time issue since as I expand in the future, I will be adding diesel engines to the layout.  This loco came with the Dynamis set I purchased to get into the DCC world, plus the little grandson loves the 'choo-choo' sounds better.

I'll be out of town for a couple of days and other than my iphone, I won't be logging on until I get back.  Thanks for all of the advice so far and the additional discussions on here have increased my knowledge as well.

Lonnie

[utdave]

heres also what makes them derail     check for foam packing under the loco  its black   and sometimes u dont even know its there.   it happened to me 

[Doneldon]

Lonnie-

Actually, all of the drive wheels drive the loco. One pair is driven by the motor
and drive train and then the rest are driven by the side rods.
                                                                                                -- D

[jbrock27]

Thank you for the add'l info Jeff. 
BTW, I just came across your tutorial thread about how to eliminate "S"curves, from December 2012 and saved it.  Very straightforward and easy to understand.  Thanks.

[Sabadu]

I am having the exact same problem as 8stargazer with the same loco.  I also bought the Dyanamis set with the 2-8-0 C&O loco.  It is driving me crazy.  I also purchased a diesel that runs fine.  The wheels have been checked with a gauge, but my model train store guy(I'm lucky enough to have a great store nearby) thought the pilot wheels where not putting enough pressure.  He tried to fix it and it worked for a while, but it must have loosened up again.

I am also new to model railroading.  Is it expected that these issues should occur on a brand new locomotive?  This is on top of the flourescent light issue I have and the fact that the signal cuts out from time to time (I have a small 4x6 layout so I can't be too far away).

I'm using easy track to keep everything Bachmann consistent.

[rogertra]

The main cause of derailments is careless track laying.

This can be: -

1) Rail joiners not correctly used.  If a rail is not correctly slid into the joiner, it can result in one rail being higher than the other.

2)  Track not laid flat but with built in twists.  In other words, track not laid on a flat surface.

3)  Poorly laid curves that are not correctly aligned but laid with kinks in the curves.

With well laid track, the pressure spring over the pilot truck is not needed.  I remove all mine and have no issues and I have some 30 steam loco models ranging from Bachmann 2-6-0, Spectrum 4-6-0 (two types), 2-8-0, 4-8-2 (Heavy and light), Athearn 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 and kit bashed IHC 2-10-2s and none have the trucks springs and none derail.  Well, not very often and then it's usually my fault.   

Using "Easy Track" with Bachmann locomotives doesn't make any difference.  I've hand laid track and used Atlas Code 83 flex track.  The brand of track makes little difference, it's the care you take when laying it that counts.

So, first thing to do with any derailment is to double and triple check your track laying and make sure it's perfect.

Cheers

Roger T.

[Sabadu]

Roger,

Thanks for you quick response.  I will check my layout; there are some points where it is not sitting flat on the board.

[ALCO0001]

IF you have a switch track issue with one certain loco or car ,it is not a switch  problem ,it is the car or the engine ,the wheels that are        catching need to be checked in there spread from each other or properly called the gauge , if you do not have a gauge ,    you  can measure  the wheel spread on the good engine or cars that does not have problems with the switch with a pop sickle stick and notch it with a blade from  the distance between the Inside of the wheels ,do a accurate notch ,then compair it to the car or loco that has the issues. THEN  REMOVE the wheel set and adjust in or out ,press or pull .Common for some to be out of gauge,But when you get it right you get rid of a lot of the banging noise through the switches crosses ect.. Hope this HELPS,put away the file until you gauge your wheels or you will probably create another issue .
Jack