cog railway

[andrewd]

do you think that Bachmann will release a HO version of the Mount Washington cog railway if so would you buy it I mean it would be cool to have a version of the mountwashigtoncograilway that looks realistic

[richg]

Seriously doubt it. There would never be near enough demand I have seen the steamer and bio-diesel versions up close. The diesel might be easier to model but not the steamer.
The track and turnouts, that is another story.

Rich

[Doneldon]

Andrew-

I'd be very surprised if Bachmann, or anyone for that matter, will ever make a set for a cog railway. There just wouldn't be enough interest which means the price would have to be extremely high to cover the development costs, and that huge price would discourage most of the potential buyers. The Pike's Peak railway is more likely to interest modelers, I think, but I don't expect that will ever be produced either. You do, however, have some options for mountain animation on your layout.

The first is to get the Marklin (I think) ski lift. It's spendy but it looks like fun. I'd slow it way down from its normal speed. Then there's the cable car that one of the European companies (maybe Marklin again, but I don't think so, or maybe Faller) makes for a circus or amusement park ride. It should be fairly easy to adapt that so it runs from mountain to mountain or from low to high. Or, put a narrow gauge railroad on your mountains. A geared loco, or even a NG Mike or Connie, would be able to handle the tough grades and tight turns. Narrow gauge modeling isn't much tougher than regular modeling and you may even be able to adapt a narrow gauge line onto your existing scenery. If you haven't yet built your scenery it would be easy to include a narrow gauge right-of-way in your plans.

Then there's the possibility of scratch building a cog railway. This would be a challenge but a fun one. The loco would be the hardest and I wouldn't even try to do any kind of couplers. Just use screws to hold a drawbar. Use very short, old-style passenger cars, or maybe the Thomas the Tank Engine passenger cars. Use either European four-wheel freight cars or old time US freight cars if you want to do more than run a single train up and down. That will mean designing and building turnouts, which will probably be easier than it seems, but not a cake walk. You'll have to rework the rolling stock undercarriages to accommodate whatever grade you use. You'll have to make major modifications to your motive power, including a gear underneath to engage the gear strip, and I imagine the loco would need to be very heavy to avoid just rising up on the cogs.

A good alternative would be to fake the motive power. Adapt a loco (I agree that a diesel would be easier than steam, whether operating or not) to the grade and install the cog strip but use a fishing line or some such to actually do the work. You could let the line show or conceal it under the tracks and let it pull the train up and down with a long pin from under the loco, maybe through the fake cog you'd need to show.  You could automate the whole thing without too much trouble. Pull the train up, wait a preset amount of time and then send the train back down. I suppose you could also us a strong magnet, like a neodymium magnet, under the tracks but I'm afraid the motion might be jerky unless you really refine the drive mechanism. With a positive push/pull drive moving the magnet up well-lubricated aluminum channels and free wheeling loco and train cars it might smooth out enough.

Let us know if you go ahead with this.

                                                             -- D

[richg]

Steamer.



Bio-diesel



Track work.



Drive sprocket on the diesel.



Rich

[RAM]

I am sure that the turnout is powered.  Does anyone know how it is powered?

[J3a-614]

Cog or rack railroad equipment has been offered in HO and other scales, complete with appropriate track. 

Only one steam locomotive has been offered in HO that I know of.  This was a rack-and-adhesion locomotive, offered by Fleischmann.  Apparently it is no longer in production.

http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/403401.aspx

http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/4034.aspx

Here's a page where a fellow tried this in N scale:

http://www.scottpages.net/WallMountN.html

It appears that in HO, Fleischmann offered a center rack that clipped into regular HO track:

http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/6412.aspx

More people discussing rack roads, in this case in HO narrow gauge:

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=567

This is very definitely a minority interest, with little in the way of commercial products.  At the same time, consider it a challenge!  That's what some of the old timers did!

[richg]

I am sure that the turnout is powered.  Does anyone know how it is powered?

The original turnouts where manual. This one is hydraulic control at the base. Another loco leaves right after the first loco.
Up the mountain, they use solar power. Near the top, an original manual one. Check the Cog railway sire and search You Tube. Many here forget about You Tube videos.
I think the original where a nine step process for each turnout.

Rich

[andrewd]

I think I will just try and make the locos myself do any of you guys out there know how to get the blueprints for both steam  and diesel if you can help thanks

[J3a-614]

It's not much, but it's what I could find:

http://kirovrampager.deviantart.com/art/Mt-Washington-Cog-Railway-1-Mt-Washington-WIP-338869234

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/325/3/e/mt__washington_cog_railway_1_mt__washington_wip_by_kirovrampager-d5lr56a.png

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Mt-Washington-Cog-Railway-6-TipTop-WIP-338995600

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/326/9/3/mt__washington_cog_railway_6_tiptop_wip_by_kirovrampager-d5ltuog.png

How the switches originally worked:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBdCN7Ssuc0

If I were doing something like this, I would seriously consider Donaldon's suggestion of faking the locomotives (in effect, dummy engines) and working the line with a cord or thread.  The prototypes of Mount Washington's locomotives are rather on the small side, and would be difficult to build in a larger scale; you're talking about something the size of an N scale switcher on HO standard gauge.  Alternately, you could power the coach the locomotive pushes up the mountain, and substitute a coupling of some sort between it and the dummy locomotive in place of the buffers/rollers used by the prototype (the cars and the locomotives aren't really coupled on this railroad, except by gravity).

In any event, if you get to do something with  this, be sure to keep us posted, and if whatever you do comes out looking really good, consider writing it up as an article for Model Railroader or some other publication.

[andrewd]

thanks for the help now I can study the blueprints and experiment on my old loco so that way when I'm ready for some more engines I know how to make them look like cog engines if I want now I just 1 thing can anyone find out what sized gear would work for an HO scale engine

[andrewd]

should I try and make the track look like this two rails and the rack off center a little or two rails and the rack perfectly center 

[J3a-614]

Most rack railroads have a centered rack, and that's what I would choose--but naturally, there was an off-center variant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack_railway

It's interesting to note in the Wikipedia article that there is mention of various steep railroads around the world, including some worked by adhesion.  And look what's in that list--Cass Scenic, with grades exceeding 11%!  That road averages 5%, has several stretches of 7-8% (including one where they regularly have to start the train from a water stop), and two stretches of that 11%.  One of them used to be 13%!  And the road still had to use switchbacks, too.  And hey, Bachmann makes a Shay and a Climax that are both at Cass. . .plus log cars, a donkey engine, and excursion cars. . .

Back to rack lines. . .

Some photos that may be of interest of rack railroads around the world:

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2011/05/spectacular-cog-railways.html

http://www.martynbane.co.uk/2003Trips/Brienzetc/oct042003-2.htm

One of the more interesting rack roads is the Nilgiri Mountain Railway of India.  This is a rack-and-adhesion line that uses locomotives with independent drive systems for adhesion and rack working.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nilgiri_Mountain_Railway

[J3a-614]

More on the Nilgiri and other hill railroads of India:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fWrSJa4lrk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZZOQ6s2VGc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_21_CS0J1U

[andrewd]

I meant like how tall round wise should the cog be for an HO engine

[J3a-614]

Judging from most of the illustrations from the rack railway pages here, it looks like the main driving cog is about the size of whatever is being used for a driving wheel, or a braked wheel on a non-powered coach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SMR_Axle_on_display_at_Llanberis_05-07-24_20.jpeg

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/TdR9QZiW1bI/AAAAAAABeYg/4EvbMEom0lM/s720/e5rtgwefwefwfwef.jpg

http://www.martynbane.co.uk/images/oct2003/oct0403/riggenbach.jpg

http://infovalldenuriaeng.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/p1030932_b.jpg

http://www.triposo.com/poi/Budapest_Cog-wheel_Railway

http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/slm.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/richbd/7520473242/


An important point to keep in mind is that the working diameter of a cog working in a rack like this will be slightly less than the overall diameter of the gear, and will have to match the locomotive or car wheel; in other words, the gear teeth will be extending a bit below rail level.  The prototype photos look like the gear teeth are about the same depth as flanges, and we use deeper flanges most of the time, so that might still be a good guide.  

Alternately, some cog roads might have a cog mechanism that's independent of the rail wheels, and if that's the case, you can use almost any diameter that's convenient.

I might consider acquiring a commercial cog locomotive model and adapting its mechanism to a home-made or kitbashed superstructure.  It won't be exact scale for a Mount Washington locomotive (it's almost certain to be too big, as the Mount Washington engines are quite small), but it might save a lot of grief trying to engineer this.  Even if you did decide to build a whole new locomotive, the commercial mechanism would give ideas about things like tolerances, clearances, and how to work out a drive.