Thoughts and experiences with Bachman S4?. ALCO brass rehab

[Handsome Devil]

Recently bought a DC Bachman S4 and took it to my brothers layout where we broke it in. At first it had some gear/motor noise and ran better in reverse than forward. Overall it ran wonderful right out of the box. Wouldn't complain about either comments as they were very minor issues. Figured the gear/motor noise was a free version of "value sound". After about half hour in each direction the speed/voltage settled down and ran equal in both directions pulling about a 20 car train on basically 0 degree grade. No warmth and the thing just runs great, slow or fast. Crawls as nice as anything from other mfg. So the million dollar question is how others have done and anybody ran these long term with any problems? I was very pleased with mine and the cost for a DC version was cheap in my book, very good value so far.

Also on same visit took an old ALCO brass S1 that I shouldn't of bought but did. Looks great but had dead short and wheels show lots of use. My brother is a accomplished modeler and incredible mechanic/enginerd. He took out the wiring for the lights and an after market "resister" and wired back to stock. The pitman motor was in great shape but dirty, so he removed and cleaned the motor and brushes. It ran after a while but had electrical  pu issues and was very erratic. After some more tweaking he gave it back to me to put the shell on. It seemed that the shell was contacting the top of the brushes or  motor and the tape we put in to insulate wasn't working well. Was ready to just say the heck with it and cut my losses. Put the shell back on and put it on rails not expecting much. The darn thing started running, erratically but still running. So we put it on a train and ran it for half hour. The speed picked up and voltage remained same. Eventually she ran very well and even at slow speeds. Growls like a mad dog but actually ran almost as nice as modern Bachman, Atlas, Kato/ proto 2000, almost that is. My how these plastic locomotives run so nice. The all wheel electrical pu is wonderful when you compare to the old brass which I have a lot of.
With problem free plastic models I do not know how much or on long run this old ALCO S1 will run as the motor does get pretty warm with extensive long run use? But I also kind of like the growling, kind of reminds me of 1:1 gauge, along with all the mechanical/electical issues.

Cheers, John.

[MilwaukeeRoadfan261]

I have the sound value version of the S4 painted as Southern Pacific 1474 and I have no complaints about it. It runs great, sounds great, and I have adjusted the sounds to how I want them.

[Handsome Devil]

Thanks for your input Milwaukeeroadfan261. Have not seen or had any experience with the value sound or sound value versions. I did experience a "value sound" 2-6-0 if that is a similar option? I thought that was great too. Have quite a bit of brass and I plan  on running most  of them, so the idea of converting them to DCC or sound doesn't appeal to me. It would cost me a fortune to convert over. Sure would like to try one out or see on in action. If it is  indeed in the same arena as the "value sound" 2-6-0, I may have to have one of those. Again thanks for the input. Cheers, John.

[MilwaukeeRoadfan261]

Yes the sound value ALCO S4 does fit into the same area of the Bachmann product line as the ALCO 2-6-0. Both are Standard line engines and were released about the same time in either DCC ready or DCC Sound Value along side the ALCO FA-2 and FB-2 (also with Sound Value fitted or DCC Ready vesions. If you have the chance to get a sound value engine I would recommend getting one. It is worth the money if you want a dcc sound engine but don't want to spend big bucks to get a spectrum one with sound or converting one to sound yourself.

[choochoopapa]

I have 7 S-4 units all run very well. I also have 4 RS-3s which run great as well. I have 2 FA-2 units which also run great. All units have sound and are a great value in anyones book. Cant wait to see what comes next. thanks Bachmann.

[Handsome Devil]

Again thank you for your input. Hope my impulsiveness doesn't bite me on this. Just ordered a Bachman S-4 with DCC with sound traxx. Tried to educate myself using the search engine and not sure but I think I am more confused than before. Kind of sounds like the value sound thing is replaced with dual mode DC/DCC and sound works on DC too. Was told earlier that like value sound it works, but you don't get all the bells and whistles {pun intended} of the DCC aspect of sound  or how ever one my convey the differences. Hope it functions ok on DC as I have no place for a DCC locomotive. Was recently at train show in Green Bay and saw a Bachman 4-4-0 with all the DCC sounds and it was pretty cool I must admit. For me sound isn't necessary, but if I can get a few to run on DC with the major sounds that would the best of both worlds. Hate to post about this stuff as I am sure the regulars on this site get tired of newbies asking the same questions over and over. Find the whole Bachman sound thing confusing. I am waiting for technology to come up with a cheap and easy way to convert brass from the 60's and 70's to an improve running and sound capability. I see a few ideas are getting close, but no cigar yet. Thanks guys. John.

[MilwaukeeRoadfan261]

It should run on DC just fine. The sounds like the horn will be automatic, for example, the horn will go off twice when you put the engine in forwards, three times when the engine is put in reverse, 2 long with 1 short and 1 long when you increase the speed.

[Doneldon]

I am sure the regulars on this site get tired of newbies asking the same questions over and over. Find the whole Bachman sound thing confusing. I am waiting for technology to come up with a cheap and easy way to convert brass from the 60's and 70's to an improve running and sound capability. I see a few ideas are getting close, but no cigar yet. Thanks guys. John.

John-

Don't worry about asking newbie questions. I believe I can speak for at least most of us in saying that we're happy to learn about new people entering the hobby and we enjoy being helpful. We're (I'm) glad to have you on board.

It isn't necessarily all that hard to convert older brass locomotives to DCC and sound. Many middle-age and newer brass locomotives were built with can motors so the hardest part is done, i.e., isolating the motor from the chassis. Once that's done you're almost home. Brass locos from the 50s, 60s and most of the 70s were built with open-frame motors which can be devils to convert unless you install can motors (the entire "can" of a can motor is electrically isolated from the works inside so you can't have a shorting problem, assuming things are otherwise intact) and adapt the existing gears or install new gears from a place like Northwest Short Line. There's plenty of room for  decoders in the tenders. Many tenders, even some older ones, are perforated on the bottom for sound. If not, it's easy enough to drill holes to let the sound out the botton or to drill small hidden holes through a coal load so the sound comes out the top.

Diesels are much harder, in my opinion. It may be necessary to mill a frame to make a place for a can motor or decoder and speakers can be problematic because they take up space which is very limited inside a diesel. Often a speaker will fit inside the fuel tanks but, if not, it becomes necessary to mount the speaker so the sound comes out of grills, fans or the cab. All of those can be quite tricky. Some folks even end up placing the decoder and speaker in a boxcar and leaving them permanently coupled.

Whether steam or diesel, use the largest possible speaker for the best sound and be certain to install a sonically-sealed baffle around it. Otherwise your sound will be mushy and be hard to hear as the waves coming off of the back of the speaker will tend to cancel out the sounds eminating from the front.

In any event, welcome to this board and model railroading. I look forward to learning about your progress.
                                                                                                                                                               -- D

[Handsome Devil]

Thank you "D" for the welcome and thoughts on converting older brass to DCC. While maybe some day I will be tempted to convert, the numbers involved just doesn't do it for me. Have so many brass steam locomotives that it would be quite time consuming and expensive. Have been building kits and collecting for some time now on and off. Finally am committing to building a layout. That is my big concern, getting started on my first. The DCC/sound conversion is way low on my priority list. As stated for me personally it just isn't that important. Getting my upstairs cleaned out and bench work going is. Have so much to learn and do. I can just put the sound/DCC thing further down on list of priorities. Local hobby shop has classes on conversions but unless the cost has come down dramatically, it would cost me a fortune to convert my engines over. That is why I am happy to just have a few that have the sound option with DC function. Now if I could duplicate the Bachman DCC/DC with sound for a cheaper cost, I would be very tempted to do a few of my favorite brass. I have put can motors in one or two of my brass already. Have a couple that need re-motoring anyway. Again thank you. Cheers, John.
. 

[Doneldon]

John-

You have lots of company when it comes to converting only part of a locomotive roster to DCC/sound, me included. I have about  a hundred brass locos of all vintages, mainly steam; installing DCC/sound in all of them would break the bank over and over again. So I converted the ones I run and have the others for display only. I also have a number of recent plastic steam and diesel locos with DCC/sound so, all together, I have more than enough power. From a practical standpoint, I find that a few sound locos operating at a low level provide a more satisfying and realistic effect that having a whole layout full of sound locos competing for ear space.
                                                                                                                                                        -- D

[Handsome Devil]

"D", have heard of doing the box car thing for sound or lack of room, definitely an option. My thought is for my smaller brass is using a spare tender as a canteen. Same principle, just different form. Larger steam maybe a larger tender. Most of my steam is under or maxed out at about 100 ton {few are that heavy}. Have many of the non DCC Bachman steam that have been barely broken in. Not sure about longevity of some of them from what I have read? But I sure like them and plan on using them too, comparing them to brass right out of the box certainly changed my views and got me back to where I am today, starting a layout.



Being rather old school and cheap by nature seldom go for the latest and greatest technology especially in electrical gizmo's. Technology grows so fast I hate to get on the train of trying to keep up. When the cost and product meet my criteria maybe. The idea of tank car, tender "canteen" or box car loaded with sound is probably the cheapest and easiest solution and would give the largest degree of versatility/cost. The thoughts of not using my United Serria #45 2-6-2's and some of the other smaller and unique brass would be a shame. Grew up being around smaller steam as a kid and still work on smaller steam so my interest is smaller industrial, logging or short-line type size and modeling. Having your cake and eating it to is a spur to creativity when money isn't there to buy what you want. In my way of thinking it is in a way very proto-typical. In modeling if you can't afford you improvise by "kit bashing". In industry they called it deferred maintenance or running repairs. Well put by "Red Green" when he stated "this is just temporary........ unless it works". Cheers, John.  

[Handsome Devil]

Question Milw261 {hope you don't mind if I shortened up your handle}: In an earlier reply you mentioned adjusting the sounds to your liking or what ever. Can  you elaborate on this?

My new "Sound Value" S-2 came today after much anticipation on my part. Rather frustrating testing here. At first the engine just didn't respond well at all, in all categories. Then is settled down some but I could tell something was not right. It just acted very confused and had almost no sound. Eventually the engine noise is about the only constant to work. Then the bell would start working but only sometimes regardless of speed. When it worked it was great at slow speed of course, the next time regardless of slow speed it wouldn't go on. Then after a long time the horn tried to work a little, again very spotty. Direction is a problem unless you have the voltage quite high. I cleaned the wheels, tried different power packs {2}, brand new code 70 test track. Sometimes it showed real hope and would respond very well, but then go back to acting confused about signals. I presume voltage levels change and activate certain functions? My controller is the only thing I didn't change out. Wondering if this is some of the problem. It is an older Aristocraft trainmaster hand held and works fine on my DC Atlas, Proto 2000, and Kato diesels. Works fine on all my brass steam too.  Of course maybe I have entered into a new realm of fussy electronics. Local hobby shop said they would look at it and tell me if I needed something on my end. Just wondering if you have to reset the factory settings to make this run acceptably on DC. Doesn't appear to be advertised this way. I need to buy a better  power pack as the one I have been using is probably half the reason I am having problems. That is the reason I have been trying different power. In the end it settled down to about  50% confused. Sounds like self analysis to me.

As these engines break in to the electronics improve? Might sound like a rather foolish question but after a time more functions did start to work, even if erratically. Or as usual is it operator error on my part somehow? Thanks, John.