Bachmann CN FA-2 Sound on Board models are unnumbered incorrectly painted!!!!

[rogertra]

Today, I purchased two Bachmann CN FA-2  models in what looked like in the box, the CNR black and yellow scheme and, while the models carry the correct "Canadian National" in their sides and the CNR crest on the nose, when I got home and checked on line, I found out the CNR FA-2s were NEVER painted in the black and yellow scheme as on the models.  They were painted the classic CNR freight colours of Green, yellow and, in addition, the models are unnumbered??

See photo of units below.

"Well", I though, "Perhaps the boxes contain decals." (Separate decals is a good idea BTW.)

But sadly, not only are are the units unnumbered and incorrectly painted but the boxes contain NO decals!!!!!

Mr. B, what on Earth was behind these dumb pieces of logic?

The colour scheme is easily checked on line and all CNR locomotives are numbered, as is every other locomotive in North America, if not the world.

There's no reference and no information in the instructions as to why the units are unnumbered nor suggestions on what decals to purchase. As for the wrong colour, well, what can one say?

After spending in excess of $350 plus taxes for two locomotives, I think I have the right to expect them to be painted in the correct colours and to be numbered and numbered in the correct CNR series.

I now have to repaint the locomotives into the correct colour scheme and locate and purchase decals.

Normally, I'm a big supporter of the better quality Bachmann products. i.e., the Spectrum and DCC Sound on Board series but in this case the only thing I can say is...............................

I'm really disappointed!

[utdave]

Rogertra        i went and looked at some photos   found this one   http://www.railpictures.net/photo/359467/  .     i do have that same engine just like what you have and a B unit  one with sound and one without.      is this piture correct im showing you    Dave   

[rogertra]

Rogertra        i went and looked at some photos   found this one   http://www.railpictures.net/photo/359467/  .     i do have that same engine just like what you have and a B unit  one with sound and one without.      is this piture correct im showing you    Dave    

Yes Dave, same unit but only the two trailing units.  In your photo link the lead unit is actually an FA-1 but the trailing 'B' and 'A' units are FA-2s and clearly show they were painted in the classic CNR freight green and yellow.

After discussing these errors with people on the Yahoo CNR group I took a closer look at the units under a bright light.  It does seem that they are painted green, a very, very dark green that is nothing like the brighter CNR green as shown in the photo link you provided and that all CNR green units were painted.


There is still NO excuse for painting the units the wrong colours and ditto for not numbering them.  I'm really disappointed.

One can overlook the incorrect horns and lack of bell on the roof as these are easily corrected and or added but wrong colours and no numbers?

Some companies offer free replacement when such major errors are made.

Mr. B?  Over to you.

[WoundedBear]

I think this is the color Roger is expecting his loco's to be...........









Bachmann had a similar problem with their Alberta Heritage Grain Hopper car and the terrible shade of blue they painted it. Research into Canadian prototypes by American manufacturers can be spotty.....all of them, not just Bachmann. Most seem to think a close enough attitude is always good enough. Funny though, how even the most obscure yankee line seems to garner their full attention.

I wonder how far along the production chain a Union Pacific model in the wrong shade of yellow would have gotten? Canada seems to be just a cold, mysterious place to the hobby world.

Sid

[bapguy]

I model the Great Northern. I have several diesels in the Empire Builder paint and the Big Sky blue paint. I have models from Bowser, Athearn, and P2K. Not one of the paint colors match between the manufacturers. So it's not just you guys.  Joe

[Doneldon]

Roger-

What made you purchase these locos in the first place? I would think that not buying mispainted
equipment would be the best way to send the message that the merchandise doesn't pass muster.
Buying and then complaining seems unproductive and, frankly, foolish.

                                                                                                              -- D

[the Bach-man]

Dear Roger,
The units are, in fact, green and yellow. They referenced previously produced CN models, about which we received no complaints. Shades of colors are often difficult to determine exactly. There is a great discussion of colors in this month's C&O Historical Society newsletter.  I will risk posting it here and hope that it's OK with the Society, which is well worth joining:

From The Chief Historian 

 
Painting and Lettering - Color and Shade
By T.W. Dixon, Jr.
F7 Diagram
Painting diagram of the C&O Wave paint scheme with Speed Script lettering. COHS.

What about color?

This seems to be the critical question for modelers. Not being a modeler myself, I was not particularly attuned to the issue of color until I began to hear more from modelers, attended modelers meetings, etc. It seems that not only is color a critical consideration for modelers, it is also one of the most controversial of issues that they confront.



First, much of what we have in the way of C&O photography is in black and
while. Unlike many railroads, especially those operating in highly populated areas, C&O didn't get a lot of photography overall and even less when it comes to color or motion pictures.



Secondly, when color photos are taken, the actual color that appears on the film
(negative or transparency) is subject to the nuances of lighting and weather conditions
at the time of exposure, or the weathering of the equipment being photographed.



Third, color photos can shift over time since the color pigments were less stable
than the silver oxide that was used for black and white film. This is especially apparent
in the old Ektachrone films of the 1960s and 70s. Kodachrome seems to be quite stable
and the most accurate in depicting the true colors of a subject at the time the photo was
taken of it, especially if properly stored.



Here are paint chips of the three-tone gray scheme once used on structures along the line. These were collected, by your editor in the late 80s, from the Thurmond depot. They are somewhat faded  medium, dark, and light gray.

Fourth, C&O issued color standards, but these often simply called for the  standard without giving any kind of formula. Others cited commercial colors  designated by catalog number. These often appeared on painting and lettering diagrams. But at this point in time these colors are no longer made, or don't use the old catalog numbers of the makers.



Fifth, there is modeling interest in railroad equipment that predates color photography, such as the C&O's orange paint scheme on cars before 1923, or the "Colonial Buff" yellow used on
stations from about 1900 to 1923.



Sixth, though C&O had standards, a particular shop may not have adhered to
them exactly because of some special situation, and the color could be off the standard. The color
painted under conditions at one shop might differ from that in another paint shop, though
certainly by small degrees.



Seventh, weathering caused a shift in color on structures and equipment.



Eighth, we may have few good photos but no standards documents to tell
us the color of a particular object at all.



And finally, bad information may have circulated in the railfan and modeling
communities over time that caused, or continues to cause, color confusion.



Two examples of color issues recently came to me. The first was the color of the L-1 Hudsons. This was controversial back in the early 1970s, when many people claimed it was orange and others said it was yellow. We later discovered that initially these locomotives were painted orange to match the letterboards of the new Budd cars for The Chessie, which they were intended to haul.



Later, when the Hudsons were hauling lightweight Pullman-Standard cars, the color was changed to the "Federal Yellow" that matched the letterboards of those cars. That issue still comes up as it did a few weeks ago.



Another issue that recently arose was a question about the color of C&O wooden frame engine houses. There are few good color photos of these buildings, especially images with good paint. However, some do exist and we have the personal memories of Gene Huddleston and others who were intimately familiar with them.



They were a dark red with brighter, lighter red doors. Those that survived late had not been painted for some time, and were quite weathered. Others had weathered to the point that no paint was evident (Thurmond is example). One can imagine the soot of steam locomotives soon affected the paint as well.



However, Tod Hanger recently pointed out to me the photo by Ed Kuhr on page 123 of the Morning Sun book Chesapeake and Ohio Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment, which shows the Martin, Ky. engine house in red paint, and the ancillary building beside it very

also clearly red.



A photo by Gene Huddleston shows the Martin facility about 1970-71 in a much more weathered state. I have found that most people think that wooden engine houses were in fact gray like so many of the other C&O structures of the era.



Other examples abound. What was the color of the underbody and trucks of C&O lightweight passenger cars? How about their roofs? We can find examples where these look very black, yet blue was called for in C&O documents, and we can see in other color photos where they are decidedly blue.



The lower stripe on some early E8s was silver to match the silver fluting of lightweight cars. This was soon changed to gray when the standard for the painting of the bottom portion of  heavyweight cars was change to gray. Thus the E8's stripe blended perfectly with the gray of the head-end cars, and the gray to match the silver lower portion of the coaches and sleepers.



So, the nuances of color, the discrepancies of color from photo-to-photo, or document-to-document, or place-to-place, or also the lack of data, will continue to plague modelers, many of whom seem to be, from my perspective, obsessed with the accuracy of the color, though no one may actually remember it exactly.



I suppose this is a good thing, because it leads to research and discovery. Painting and lettering are often in the same category, with inaccurate information sometimes abounding. This has been the case with lightweight and heavyweight passenger car lettering.



A part of this has now been corrected as the C&OHS has just issued a number of sets of lettering for cars of The George Washington and other cars from the heavyweight era. Some sets show the letterboards, logos, numbers, and names of the cars in gold leaf and the others show them in imitation gold. Click here to see the sets available.



There is controversy about what was used when. The gold leaf seems to have persisted to the end on some cars and the imitation gold was used on some others during, or after, WWII. We still don't know.



However, we now know that the lettering sets that we are selling are dead-on accurate to the actual. This was made possible through the determined work of members Marshall DeBerry, Jack McGarry, Jerry Ballard,  Bill Stone, and Tod Hanger. They examined the lettering drawings in our archives and came up with the exact font C&O used for The George Washington cars in particular. In the distant past, modelers relied on the Champ Decal sets as the best available, but even they aren't right because the C&O letters and numerals don't conform to any other standard.



If you buy the new sets you can be confident the color and the shape of the lettering is right, perhaps for the first time.



We hope that sets for non-George Washington cars will become available soon.



This is my prospective on color and lettering as a non-modeler historian. I'm sure that some of our more advanced modelers might wish to expand on this, explain the topic further, or take exception with anything I've said. That's welcome.



Sincerely, Tom Dixon


If someone from the C&O Society objects to my posting this here, please let me know and I'll take it down immediately.
As for the numbers, we left them off to allow modelers to get multiple units and number their own.  Decals are available from many companies. Since we print our models, we have no facilities for decal production.  We've only done this on cab units. Obviously you don't like the idea, but many modelers do.
In any event, if you are unhappy with the units, just return them.
Have fun!
the Bach-man

[rogertra]

Roger-

What made you purchase these locos in the first place? I would think that not buying mispainted
equipment would be the best way to send the message that the merchandise doesn't pass muster.
Buying and then complaining seems unproductive and, frankly, foolish.

                                                                                                             -- D

Donald.

At the store and under store lights and through the transparent packaging, the units looked as though they were painted black and yellow.  Even the store staff thought they were painted black and yellow.  Black and yellow was an early CNR scheme that lasted through the late 1950s, my era.  Sadly, I'm not that much of an expert on CNR colours but it turns out the FA-2s were not painted black and yellow, that was some of the first PA-1s.

After studying the units under a brighter light I saw in fact they were painted a very, very dark green.  Nothing at all like the the almost U.S. military camouflage green the CNR actually used.  This colour can easily be seen in the photos links that have been posted here and as can be clearly seen, is nothing like the dark, almost black green that Bachmann used.

With all due respect to Mr. B and Mr. Dixon, the Bachmann colour is, as I wrote above,  nowhere near the green CNR used.  I worked as a volunteer at Expo Rail and have used CNR green paint/  I can can tell you Bachmann are so wrong with this that it is so far wrong as to be unbelievable.  I know what CNR green looks like, the people on the CNR Yahoo group know what CNR green looks like and the photos posted by WoundedBear show exactly what shade CNR green is and it's nothing like the almost black green that Bachmann used.

As WoundedBear pointed out, Bachmann also painted the  Alberta Heritage Grain Hopper car a terrible shade of blue.  Good grief, if we can find clear photos on the 'net, can't Bachmann?

As for not receiving any complaints, well consider mine the first.

I'd not be complaining if it was a cheapo "Botchmann" product of old but this is a so called quality model for which I paid a premium price so I have the right to expect a premium model, which I didn't get.

As for returning, that's an easy way out.  I don't want a return, I want what I paid for.  A CNR painted model in CNR paint, not somebody's idea of what CNR paint is or what they happened to have in stock at the time that was "green".

The units are great runners, the sound system isn't too bad and I'm impressed with the quality and finish of the model compared with my older Life-Like PA-2s.  I tried to fit my GER painted Life-Like FA-2 bodies onto the Bachmann chassis but sadly they won't fit without some modification.  If push comes to shove, rather than repaint the Bachmann FA-2s into GER colours, for now I'll modify the already painted Life-Like bodies to fit the Bachmann chassis.

As for the road numbers?   Decals inside the box would have been a been great because, I've already written,  unnumbered units are a good idea if the decals were supplied.

[jward]

thanks mr b for posting the C&OHS article.

when it comes to paint, as was said things change over time. some cases in point:

c&o painted their diesels enchantmant blue, b&o"s were royal blue. this evidently continued even after they came under common ownership. i spent alot of time on the b&o in the 70s and early 80s, i could never notice a difference. and which colour was used by chessie system? the blue often looked almost black to me.....

penn central painted their locomotives black with white lettering. sorta, kinda. in many cases former pennsy locomotives were simply patched with pc lettering applied. as long as they were patched with brunswick green paint it was vary hard to tell them apart from a full repaint. especially when they were filthy as pc units often were. years later, under conrail, the brunswick green had faded into a noticeable green kind of like a dark olive drab.

pennsy was notoious in later years for having different shops vary from the official painting diagrams regarding placement of the keytone herals, simply because the shop foreman thought they'd look better in a non standard location.

under conrail, different paints or processes were used by the railroad shops and the two builkders. emd built locos with factory paint jobs held up well, as did the later railroad repaints. early repaints and ge factory paint jobs faded badly.


btw roger, cn never had pa1s, none of the canadian roads had them. nor did their american subsidiaries.

[rogertra]

.


btw roger, cn never had pa1s, none of the canadian roads had them. nor did their american subsidiaries.

I wrote "FA-1" not "pa1".  The 9400 in WoundedBear's series of photos below is an FA-1.

BTW, No American road ever owned a "pa1" either, they all owned "PA-1" units.

And I am not discussing faded paint, nor patched paint, nor paint shades effected by fading photos and slides, I'm discussing the completely wrong shade of the green that is way too dark.

Most of the posts here seem to be defending Bachmann's major error.

Much as I am a fan of the Bachmann Spectrum range, I have over 30 of their locomotives, in this case they really dropped the ball.  Just look at WoundedBear's photos and tell me the Bachmann model is painted the same colour.  It's not!  Bachmann's colour is closer to Brunswick green than "CNR Green No.11".

[jward]

 Sadly, I'm not that much of an expert on CNR colours but it turns out the FA-2s were not painted black and yellow, that was some of the first PA-1s.

nuff said.

[Bucksco]

Compare the 2 photos:

One is a photo from our catalog. It is an actual production piece - Looks pretty close to the pics that were posted above. Look at the other photo. It is a "boxed" FA2 - looks darker due to the packaging.
Sorry if you are not happy with the product. We do our best.





Your concerns are noted - this thread has run it's course.