Best pulling power from steam?

[Jenericloches]

Hello forum;

I'm posting here because I had such a pleasant experience with my last Bachmann train.   I want to buy another.   I am making a 'custom' train for Christmas featuring the 12 days of Christmas - similar to the Micro-trains series but mine will be custom, meaning custom colors, art,  etc.

Because I now have creative control, I want to have a steam engine pulling it.   With 12 cars that will require some pulling power.  I am hopeful some here can make a recommendation on a steam loco which can pull it.   I do plan to paint/decorate it, so the more 'sleek' the better...   but pulling power comes first by a long shot.

I have a simple over/under layout.  Here is a photo;



It isn't a bad grade, but it does give my 2-8-0  locos some trouble when I have more than five or six cars.   My Christmas train will be pulling 12 and a caboose...  
( I can easily pull twelve with my Kato A/B diesel loco pair. )

Yes, I have tried Frogsnot.  It helped some but made a heluva mess.  I may try it again, but I'd prefer to start with a decent puller first.

As you can see, the curves aren't outrageous, but a 4-8-8-4 is likely out of the question.

Oh, and though I am running with DCC, I seldom have more than one at a time on the track;  Too much trouble when I am entertaining - it is a single loop. (I'm open to the idea of a double loop if anyone has a plan to propose.)

[Mike C]

You might try the Bachmann 2-10-2, mine pulls well. The newer heavy mountain 4-8-2 might be a good choice also. Here is a link to all you may want to know about just about every N scale loco ever produced....Mike

http://www.visi.com/~spookshow/locos.html

[Joe Satnik]

Dear Jenericloches,

If you have the room, buy another pier set, put aside the 2 new highest piers, and shim the rest by .070".   

Start with a 0.070" shim (=s), then alternate your old piers (=p) with new the shimmed piers (=sp) to get a (twice as long) 1.4% grade.

s p1 sp1 p2 sp2 p3 sp3........p11 sp11 p12,  reverse for downgrade. 

If you plan to run in one direction only, you could leave the downgrade "as is" to leave more track "flat on the table"

Assumptions (not mentioned):

You are using Atlas N scale Code 80 track with the Atlas 2541 Code 80 Over 'N Under Pier Set

Atlas no longer has a Forum. 

Bachmann should have some kind of agreement with Atlas that if their products are discussed on this board,

Bachmann Industries Inc. would somehow be compensated.   

e.g., The Atlas CEO would have to come over and weed The Bach-man's garden railway...

Hope this helps. 

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[skipgear]

If your 2-8-0 struggles, then you should probably take Joe's advice and stretch out that grade to make it a little more shallow. My 2-8-0's will pull at minimum 40+ cars on level and around 15-20 on a 2% grade. One well broken in 2-8-0 manages almost 70 cars on level.

Any of the newest loco's from Bachmann will be pretty safe for pulling power. Even my little 4-6-0 has pulled a 20 car train on a friends layout that is a constant 1-1.5% grade for 3 laps around his basement.

I have used both the 2-10-2 and the Heavy Mountain (4-8-2) to pull a troop train consisting of 18 Micro Trains troop sleepers, another dozzen flats with loads, 6 box cars, two tank cars and a heavyweight coach at Ntrak shows.

As far as the big articulateds, they will actually deal with tight corners better than some of the long wheelbase smaller steam. The Athearn Big Boy and Challenger are both capable of 70+ car trains on level, I have heard of guys pulling over 100 cars with them. Don't count the Bachmann 2-6-6-2 in the same class as the other articulateds though, they are slippery loco's and some of the weakest pullers I have, but the latest one will do 30-35 hoppers on level after a decent amount of break in, still not what I would expect from it.

[brokemoto]

If your SPECTRUM 2-8-0s are slipping, the grade is far too steep.  The SPECTRUM 2-8-0 is a standard for pulling against which the small and average size N scale steam locomotives are measured.

The SPECTRUM USRA heavy 4-8-2 is a good puller.

The Kato USRA heavy 2-8-2 with the traction tyre replacement is also a good puller.

Keep in mind that you probably need at least eleven inch curves for these locomotives. 

The Kato will take a nine and three quarter curve, but it does not like it.   So tight a curve will compromise its pulling power. It does better on the EZ TRAK eleven and whatever curves.

While some may get their SPECTRUM 2-8-0s around nine and three quarter curves, mine have always climbed them to the point of derailment.  These are Atlas snap track nine and three quarter curves.  Some of mine will even climb E-Z TRAK eleven and one quarter (or is it eleven and one half?) curves.  They do not climb every time or to the point of derailment, but you can hear the slight *CLUNK* as they come to a straight.

I do not know if the heavy 4-8-2 will go around an eleven inch curve, but I suspect that it would climb it more than does the 2-8-0.

The sharper the curve, the less pulling power.  Make your grades a little less steep and your cuves broader.   Bachpersonn does sell twelve and one half and fourteen inch EZ TRAK curves as well as seventeen and something and nineteen.

[Jenericloches]

Thanks for the replies.

My 2-8-0 has always run a little slow on DCC.   With straight DC it runs fine, but DCC is about half power.  I sent it in to Bachmann and they told me everything is as it should be.   That may have something to do with why it isn't pulling.

I'll look at some of these other Locos.   I have only a few curves that worry me, and none are on the grade.    You can see from the photo that the grade has over 6 feet on each side.   I suppose I could stretch it more, but I worry that it may lack support leading to derails...

[skipgear]

Speed doesn't equate to pulling power. Actually, a loco geared lower will pull more.

Which 2-8-0 is it? Did it come with factory with DCC or has it been converted. Decoder setup could be part of the issue. What DCC system are you using?

Average rise to clear N scale track is 2" so 2" in 6' should be about a 3.6 percent grade. That is pretty steep. Most people try to keep things under a 2 percent grade, 2" rise in 100" of travel. The rule of thumb, for every percent of grade increase, the train length is cut in half. If a loco will pull 40 cars on level, it will pull 20 on a 1 percent, 10 on a 2 percent, and 5 on a 3 percent. It's not a straight relationship but that is a good way to estimate. Testing is the only way to know for sure. Each loco is a little different.

[Mark.S+10]

The absolute best pulling N steam that Bachmann makes is the Spectrum 4-8-4 J class, it will pull the paint off the wall and looks good doing it.  My 2-8-0's, heavy 4-8-2's, 2-10-2's and 4-6-0's all have nearly the same pulling power.  Have fun, Mark.

[James in FL]

Agreed, the J is a brute and it's hard to beat it in the "sleek" department.
If your minimum radius is 15 or more, you can pretty much run anything you want.
I see nothing is permanent yet? so get the biggest loco you want and then build the track accordingly.

Good luck

[Jenericloches]

Speed doesn't equate to pulling power. Actually, a loco geared lower will pull more.

Which 2-8-0 is it? Did it come with factory with DCC or has it been converted. Decoder setup could be part of the issue. What DCC system are you using?

It is a spectrum engine - I'll have to dig out the box to find out which one.  It came with a decoder and Bachmann says everything is in order.   It just inexplicably runs slower on DCC. 

Agreed, the J is a brute and it's hard to beat it in the "sleek" department.
If your minimum radius is 15 or more, you can pretty much run anything you want.
I see nothing is permanent yet? so get the biggest loco you want and then build the track accordingly.

Good luck

Yea, I have two 9.5" radius turns on either end of the inside loop.   The bar is only 30" wide, so if I were to try to squeeze 15" curves into there I would only have a very uninteresting single loop.   I may be able to swap out the 9.5's for 12's and keep it interesting, but I'm not sure that a 4-8-4 would give it much luvin...

[skipgear]

Speed doesn't equate to pulling power. Actually, a loco geared lower will pull more.

Which 2-8-0 is it? Did it come with factory with DCC or has it been converted. Decoder setup could be part of the issue. What DCC system are you using?

It is a spectrum engine - I'll have to dig out the box to find out which one.  It came with a decoder and Bachmann says everything is in order.   It just inexplicably runs slower on DCC. 

You never said what DCC system you are using. If it is the Bachmann EZ system, then it's output voltage is around 14-16V. If it is Digitrax, probably around 12V. Not sure on other brands. Your average DC power supply will put out close to 20V at max throttle accounting for your perceived difference in top speed.

[Jenericloches]

You never said what DCC system you are using. If it is the Bachmann EZ system, then it's output voltage is around 14-16V. If it is Digitrax, probably around 12V. Not sure on other brands. Your average DC power supply will put out close to 20V at max throttle accounting for your perceived difference in top speed.

That may finally explain it.
Here is the Spectrum 2-8-0;
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0001P?I=LXZGH8&P=8

I am running with a Digitrax DCS-51 - nice to finally understand that issue. 
It runs fine on my track, but when pullin cars I've noted that the front trucks derail often.  The spring seems too weak to hold them down with even the slightest load.  I had to remove them.

Regarding the original topic - that 4-8-4 looks really sweet, but I don't think it is feasable to run it in a 30" space.  Bummer.

[James in FL]

Any easement is better than no easement on those 9½? curves.
A little easement can buy a lot, and may help with your climbing.

Have you considered a streamline Hudson (4-6-4) for sleek factor?
Not sure of the min. radius for one (mine will run on 11.25r) but they are pretty good pullers, but no factory DCC.

[Snotrek]

Some of the comments imply that a 2-8-0 is "geared down".  Is this so?  I just purchased one and it runs much slower using the same amount of power that my Bachmann 4-6-0.  Should I expect this or is there a problem with the 2-8-0.  Both run smoothly.  Am using Digitrax DCC empire builder.  Have not tested either for pulling power.