Horseshoe Curve

[ebtbob]

Good Morning All,

       The biggest problem with Horseshoe Curve is the fact the trees have grown in so much that you really do not get a feel for the area.   There was one time when you stood at the curve and looked to your right,  east,  you could see a train rounding the curve as it came up from the Brickyard.   If you looked to your left,  west,  you could see all the way up the grade to the point where the trains rounded a curve from Bennington Curve,  MG tower,  and the tunnels at Gallitzen.

[jward]

you can still get a view like that from the hill over the gallitzen tunnels.

the biggest problem now is that so many of the other good spots on the mountain are now off limits. for example, there is a spot about a mile below the curve where you have the front of the train coming down the tracks towards you, and the rear in the background as it rounds horseshoe curve.  the whole mountain is full of spectacular spots like this but you are no longer allowed to go there.

[jettrainfan]

Any reason they were blocked off? I've heard the 9/11 story 1,001 times but im wondering if it had anything to do with injuries...?

[jward]

no 9-11 had alot less to do with it than norfolk southern did. but even before the ns takeover, conrail had started to cite people for trespassing. i believe it was initially caused by a few who had no respect for the railroad and did unsafe things near the track like taking rail level photos of oncoming trains. things like that freak a train crew out, for good reason. but since ns took over, the level of paranoia among employees has increased tenfold. ns management likes to hide in the weeds and try to catch train crews violating some obscure rule.

before the 1980s, conrail didn't care much about railfans on the mountain. we actually used to drive up to the outside of the curve itself, and camp in the 1980s.

[Doneldon]

jtf-

The basic 9/11 story is true. My son is a National Park Ranger. He said the government pulled everybody they could from the Park Service and the Forest service to go sit on railroads, dams and power plants after 9/11. They've hired people specifically for those jobs now, so the rangers are back to full strength, but the government does have significant concerns about the safety of rail lines, especially in remote places and at potential choke points like bridges.
                                                                                                                                                                     -- D

[Doneldon]

florey-

Just to be explicit: The Pennsy was NOT "known" as" the Standard Railroad of the World." The Pennsy gave that name to itself. To me, there's quite a difference. "Being known as ..." tells me someone or something has earned a particular reputation or moniker. Giving one's self a flattering nickname just seems like arrogance or narcissism, or both.

I agree that Pennsy equipment, especially the Belpaire fireboxes on the steam lokies, looked a bit odd. But that doesn't diminish the accomplishments of the railroad or its importance in railroad history. I do believe that eliminating the Pennsy from the history of railroading  would be like forgetting to include John Wayne in a discussion of western movies. However, that doesn't dispute your point. Leaving the PRR out of a discussion about your specific model railroad would be as silly as leaving John Wayne out of a discussion about Shane or The Cheyenne Social Club. My point is that something or someone as big as the Pennsylvania Railroad or John Wayne belongs in any discussion of the big picture (no pun intended) but not necessarily of a specific part of that big picture (still not intending).

I would expect that the PRR did have many foreign visitors, just as most of the larger railroads did. I don't know that that's something which would appear in resources about the railroad. But I'll bet a lot of those foreign visitors thought the Pennsy fireboxes looked a bit strange. However, the Pennsy wasn't unique in using Belpaires. Several short lines had Belpaire equipped locos and they were used on the large majority of GN steam. Wooten (which I've also seen called "radial stay") fireboxes also have a unique look but it's less obvious than the Belpaires and, accordingly, doesn't offend my sensitivities to the same degree. Sniff.
                                       -- D

[RAM]

The Santa Fe got a few PRR"s 2-8-2s during WW2.  The thought so highly of themthat as soon as the last shots were fired, they were history.

[Doneldon]

florey-

Oversize fireboxes (Belpaire being the most common) were used for harder, slower burning coal. It was needed to get the maximum steam from a boiler. Soft coals which burn more readily produce plenty of heat and therefore don't need the extra fire space. The Belpaire was apparently also a bit more efficient at transfering heat because there was a larger area at the top of the firebox where the heat is the hottest. I've seen some writers who say Belpaire fireboxes were an engineering solution to the problems of differential expansion and misalignments between staybolts which connected flat and curved surfaces. I'm not enough of an engineer to express a qualified opinion on this last issue but it makes sense to me as a lay person.

As clever and innovative as they maay be, Belpaire fireboxes still don't please my eye. Either one of them, actually.
                                                                                                                                                                          -- D

[jward]

WE:  The PRR was known as the Standard Railroad of the World.

PF:  So it supposedly was.  There was nothing standard about the appearance of their engines, though, especially  in the fireboxes they used, and the number plates and pilots were, to me, for lack of better words, pretty weird.  I have always considered Pennsy equipment very peculiar in appearance, in over 50 years of seeing it all over the place whether I wanted to or not.  If anything was ever "standard" equipment in the steam era, it was USRA locomotives ............ which is why models of them should be made available consistently.

.  

PF

we are all aware by now how much you hate the prr. that doesn't change the fact that the pennsy WAS a relatively standardized railroad. they made alot of things in house, from bridge railings, to cars and locomotives. they also preferred to design their own equipment to meet their own particular needs, rather than try to adapt generic locomotives and cars to purposes they were not well suited for. as such, they were able to standardize parts among widely different locomotives. the k4 passenger engines shared the same boiler with one of the standard designs of freight locomotives, for example. when they built a new type of locomotive or car, they subjected it to exhaustive tests befoer committing to the design. once committed, they built them by the hundreds or even thousands. this is why prr had relatively few steam locomotive types compared to other lines.

the basic principle of standardization went on to be adopted by the diesel builders, particularly emd. proven designs were built by the hundreds with only minor variations. and the standardization of parts is well illustrated by the fact that the high speed passenger locomotives (e units) were powered by pairs of the same engines used in the low speed yard switchers. and that parts like pistons were interchangeable with most other locomotives using the same engine block, regardless of how many cylinders it had.

now we take standardization for granted. 100 years ago it was unheard of.

[Bucksco]

In Philadelphia, PA we consider the Pennsylvaia Railroad near and dear to our hearts. Why was it special? Here are a few internet tidbits -

The PRR was the largest railroad by traffic and revenue in the U.S. for the first half of the twentieth century and was at one time the largest publicly traded corporation in the world. At its peak it controlled about 10,000 miles (16,000 km) of rail line; in the 1920s it carried about three times the traffic (measured by ton-miles of freight) as other railroads of comparable length, such as Union Pacific or Santa Fe. The only rival was New York Central, which carried around three-quarters of PRR's ton-miles.

During its history the PRR merged with or had an interest in at least 800 other rail lines and companies. The corporation still holds the record for the longest continuous dividend history: it paid out annual dividends to shareholders for more than 100 years in a row. At one point the budget for the PRR was larger than that of the U.S. government; at its peak it employed about 250,000 workers.

So in essence it really was the "Standard Railroad of the World"!