ON30 K-27 & C-19

[Tomcat]

Yep, Royce - thanks and ROGER THAT about the RGS 20 and the RGS/C&S 74 which would be a dream to have from Bachmann...

Ryeguyisme: That conversion of a Bachmann Consolidation into a C-25 or a C-21 is a nice job if you follow the recommendations my pal Bill Iwan has given in the On30 annual. This works pretty well. You can get all the needed bits and pieces from Precision Scale and the my other good friend Bill Banta makes a lasercut cab for the Bachmann Consolidation. There is a peaked roof and a round roof version of it in production by bill. The round roof just cries: Denver & Rio Grande Western, that´s me!!

I just got me another cab conversion kit as I want to make another C-25 kitbash from a Bachmann Connie. I do have D&RGW 360 and 361 plus 375 here but want to make another 375 in her more recent version of the late 30ies with a green boiler...

Please Bachmann, why not making the C-19 and K-27 available in On30...?
We deserve them...

Cheers, Tom

[NarrowMinded]

I read several times where people would complain because there would be a compromise in wheel gauge between On30 and On3.

This to me is the most ridiculous argument against bachmann building a K27 I have heard.

First I would say Most people could give a rats-A about whether the wheel gauge is wrong,

Second if you don't like the wheel gauge being wrong Don't buy one.

Bachmann must realise that online forums have a higher percentage of Rivet counters then there is in the real market,  in the real martket most would be buying these locomotives, the percentage of people who would buy a K27 or C19 is far greater then those who would not because the gauge is wrong.


I cannot believe there are that many people that would think if they don't do the gauge to scale then don't make them at all... that's just foolishness.

NM-Jeff

[ryeguyisme]

O scale is 1/4 inch scale, meaning  .25 of an inch is a foot. O 2-rail is 1-1/4 inch between the rails, which equals out to 5 feet, but an 1/8 inch isn't really that noticeable unless you have an eye for precision like me, but most rivet counters in O 2-rail dismiss the gauge thing because the brass and diecast manufacturers aren't going to change a standard that's been in practice for decades.

So get a grip and run your trains, nitpicking over wheel gauge isn't something to stress about in O

[Tomcat]

100% with you, folks - ryeguyisme and NM-Jeff!

The gauge does not make the big difference. I wouldn´t give a s... about the fact if the wheel gauge is wrong. Look folks, we do have Maine 2-footers from Bachmann. Any complains about the fact that their gauge is far too wide? There you go...

More and to me (and hopefully a lot of others out there) is the fact, that a good model needs to be a good runner. Hey, we love to see them move! That´s what Model Railroading is all about: See your trains roll through landscapes, not complain that there is this´n that wrong on a model which is not running at all (or is a horrible runner while looking brilliant...) I have been through this: And YES, I won´t buy a bad running model any more, even if I desparately want it!

Its as ryeguyisme said: Go and run your trains and use this time to continue building your layout, running your trains and have fun. That´s what it´s all about!

Plus a good producer who listens to us and gives us the models we demand. Must I buy another Bachmann Fn3 model to admire... Probably yes: a C-19...

Cheers, Tom

[Skarloey Railway]

O scale is 1/4 inch scale, meaning  .25 of an inch is a foot. O 2-rail is 1-1/4 inch between the rails, which equals out to 5 feet, but an 1/8 inch isn't really that noticeable unless you have an eye for precision like me, but most rivet counters in O 2-rail dismiss the gauge thing because the brass and diecast manufacturers aren't going to change a standard that's been in practice for decades.

So get a grip and run your trains, nitpicking over wheel gauge isn't something to stress about in O

You haven't heard of P4 then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P4_gauge. As some will know, British OO gauge is 4mm to the foot (1:76) running on 16.5 mm gauge or HO track, meaning the gauge is too narrow. P4 gets around this by staying with 1:76 scale but using 18.87mm gauge and involves a lot of scratchbuilding. For many people, the difference in gauge is important and for many it isn't. What's undeniable is that when you see the difference it is obvious.
With narrow gauge, perhaps because there have historically been a number of different gauges between 2' and 3', most modellers are quite tolerant. However, that some are willing to go the extra mile to get it right is to be applauded. The only downside to their efforts is that they tend to show up the work of those who don't go the extra mile

There are also groups in n gauge who use ultra fine standards for wheels and tracks http://www.2mm.org.uk/ Again, their work is beautiful and puts ordinary n gauge to shame.

[NarrowMinded]

What's undeniable is that when you see the difference it is obvious.

The key word there is "When" When do you see it?  when you have layouts sitting side by side? at a show once or twice a year or when you hold a picture up and try to scale it?

I guess the point is that A LOT more of the buying public Don't care then do, and those that do care are the type that would rather scratch build their own and brag about it rather then show off the perfectly gauged ready to run store bought locomotive.

I am from the percentage that would rather spend time detailing the scenery and buildings, the railroad is just a way to add life and movement to my scaled down world.

Here's something to think about... most all of your non railraoding friends Don't know there are different gauge tracks, most think all trains can run on all tracks, these are the same people that buy countless sets at Christmas and Locomotives for kids and Big Kids.

NM-Jeff

[Hamish K]

An issue for Bachmann in producing these locos, especially a K series, is size. Not everybody wants, or can accommodate, large locos. I can't for one.  The ability to have O scale in a small space is one of the attractions of On30, and it is not surprising that there are many small layouts with tight curves in this scale. So, is the market for large locos large enough?
MMI apparently can't make a profit with this type of loco, so could Bachmann? I realise that they are different operations, but  I expect Bachmann would need to sell more locos than MMI to break even. Could Bachmann could produce them at an attractive enough price to sell enough to make a profit? Bachmann would have a better idea of the answer to that than I do.

I agree that Bachmann should produce a range of different On30 products to suit all sections of the market, but they have to be able to sell their products at a profit.

Hamish

[ryeguyisme]

let's stop talking about MMI because they don't matter in this post, they had their glory and its over, put it to bed already. Bachmann by themselves can make a K-27 capable of negotiating 22 inch radius  based on the experience alone in their field. What other manufacturer can make an HO scale 2-10-4 With 70" drivers I think? Go around 22 inch radius? You sound so negative and doubtful(no offense) like a I was before I started actually collecting brass engines, thinking I wasn't good enough or had the drive or ambition to save money and buy the brass engines I so needed for my prototype being the standard gauge of the DRGW and NOW I have a dozen and counting brass engines and still shopping around, I even have a PFM F-81 2-10-2 owned  by Don Drew the owner of Pacific Fast Mail and its one of my prized and I sit here to tell you that if there's a will there's a way, you just have to believe in it.

The likeliness of bachmann doing a K-27 is EXTREMELY likely IMHO. It's a popular locomotive which means more people would be likely to dive into on30 such as myself. But I won't if such an engine doesn't come to exist

[Hamish K]

I don't want large narrow gauge locomotives, to my mind narrow gauge should be small and funky e.g. Porter tank locomotives, small geared locos, etc. I am not alone in this view, although I know there are others who disagree. That's fine, each to his or her own.  My point was market size, not whether Bachmann could make a K27 to go round 22 inch curves (I agree that they could, incidentally my curves are 18 inch maximum). The question is, are there enough people who would buy such a loco to enable Bachmann to make a profit on it? I have no idea. The relevance of MMI is that they have apparently decided that they can't make a profit on their range on On30locomotives.

Hamish

[Mark Damien]

Sadly for MMI, they produce what's ordered. From experience, getting someone to take an MMI order is impossible. So no orders - no locos.

Manufacturers in HO do this as well, & all it does is reduce the run size, increasing the price. If I have to pay more, I want to see the loco first, & see how well it runs before parting up with my hard earned cash.

So there's the ol' Catch 22.

Bachmann has not fallen into this bad business trend yet, relying on economies of scale bulk sales.
I would expect a reasonably priced well running, detailed loco capable of 22" curves, like all their offerings.

P.S. All my MMI k-27, 28, 36 & 37's negotiate 22" curves.

[Skarloey Railway]

The key word there is "When" When do you see it?  when you have layouts sitting side by side? at a show once or twice a year or when you hold a picture up and try to scale it?

I guess the point is that A LOT more of the buying public Don't care then do, and those that do care are the type that would rather scratch build their own and brag about it rather then show off the perfectly gauged ready to run store bought locomotive.

I am from the percentage that would rather spend time detailing the scenery and buildings, the railroad is just a way to add life and movement to my scaled down world.

Here's something to think about... most all of your non railraoding friends Don't know there are different gauge tracks, most think all trains can run on all tracks, these are the same people that buy countless sets at Christmas and Locomotives for kids and Big Kids.

NM-Jeff

You sound a little bitter there Jeff.
I don't know any scratchbuilder who brags. All I see is that if you want to model a railroad/railway to the best possible standard then gauge and track standards are part of that. It so happens that the great majority of layouts built to exact gauge and so on also have excellent buildings and scenery. And here in the UK you can easily get to 4 local shows a year and if you're willing to travel up to a 100 miles you can get to a great many more, so the opportunity to see the best work comes around quite often. 
As for non-railroading friends, why should I care what they think? In the UK the market for railways for kids is dominated by OO and N gauge. There is no demand from children or adults buying presents for children in On30 scale.

For me, some of the best model railroads are those that closely prototype practise, Mike Confalone's Allagash being a great example.

[NarrowMinded]

Skarloey Railway,

I'm not bitter at all if it reads that way it is unintentional

I do wonder why there is a trend for people to have the attitude of "If it is not exact scale, gauge, or what ever then don't Build it, my attitude is if it not what you want then don't buy it but to campaign against it's possible production is pointless.

I want a K27 in On30 but I don't want to have to build one or modify something else to get it. Bachmann has the ability to make an affordable version of one and I hope they do.

On30 may not have as high a demand as other scales but that is because Affordable Ready to run items are new to the market compaired to the other scales give it a little more time and more great locomotives and the rate at which it is growing will continue.

Lastly my screen name is narrowminded but I am not so narrow minded that I think the only way to enjoy model railroads is to make them as accurate as possible.

NM-Jeff

[Mark Damien]

I read years ago, the minimum mainline radius equates to a 10' radius in OO scale.
So to model something accurately, you would need a lot of space.

Tim Warris modelled his HO scale layout on the CNJ Bronx Terminal & it is to scale.
It's absolutely brilliant & I could write reams on every tiny detail, but it's still only a freight yard.

[Skarloey Railway]

Well, I just scrolled back through this thread and no where did I see people complaining about On30 being too narrow or arguing that Bachmann shouldn't make a 3' gauge loco in On30. There was some talk about the compromises involved in making a 3' gauge loco in On30, but it wasn't exactly negative.

There are different aims in model railroading and different compromises involved and a few millimetres in the gauge is one of the least of them given the ease of getting rtr rolling stock and locos. Far worse compromises (to me) are using a ridiculous degree of compression to cram in too much rr in too small a space and using over-tight radius curves to do it. We don't need to use a minimum of 10' radius in HO scale but we can avoid anything excessive by modelling less but modelling it better. From my observation, far too many modellers are getting their inspiration and ideas from other models these days and have forgetten what the real thing looked like.

As for a K27, I suspect it would sell to those who collect locos and don't much care about following the prototype and also to the relative small number actually modelling the RGW and the few other lines that used K27s. If Bachmann do bring it in, I hope they do a version 'as built' with Vauclain compounding and inside valve gear.
But I'd prefer an On30 Baldwin 8/18C 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 version as they were far more common and ran everywhere.

[Tomcat]

Ok, I think that Bachmann did produce for some good reason the RGS past wreck K-27 No.455 which is not that much prominent with a lot of Narrow Gaugers. That was Fn3, ok, and there was no MMI model already.

BUT: MMI did not make the 455 after wreck and only by Southwest Narrow Gauge´s efforts they will eventually make one. I would go and sell all my MMI mudhens if Bachmann would make one. I´d go for a 453, 456, 463 and the 455 RGS past wreck, though... 

Ok, the more recent Vauclain version would not be for me, but why not making it. To me, the K-27 is a engine which looked better after the nearly complete change of design in the past-Vauclain era, but I´m sure there are lots of folks out there, such as Skarloey Railway posted, which may need a Vauclain K-27.

The point is, that, if Bachmann would make one, we would have a perfect looking, brilliantly running model.
Cheers, Tom