Traction Tires

[rbryce1]

Like I said - too steep...
Also - how clean is the track?

Track is very clean NS rail.  I use the Bachmann track cleaning tank car.

[Bucksco]

Yours is the only complaint we have heard about the tractive effort of the EM1. Not really sure what your problem could be other than too steep of a grade.

[rbryce1]

What I will try is, Thursday evenings, there is another member of out Model Railroad Club who has (2) EM1's he uses in a consist to pull 5 X10 to the third power of freight cars, mostly flat track but we do have a 2% slope at one point.  I will take it over an compare the traction on his engines (separately of course) with mine and see the results.  If mine pulls the same as his, that's what it is.  If not, we can look farther.

I will admit, when the Riverossi had it's traction tires it pulled like crazy.  When it started throwing it's tires and I removed all of them to stop it from wobbling, it could hardly pull itself around.  

[Jerrys HO]

Track is very clean NS rail.  I use the Bachmann track cleaning tank car.

If all you are using is the track cleaning car your track is not as clean as you think.
It does take a little elbow grease to clean the tracks.

Jerry

[rbryce1]

The track is definitely clean.   I vacuum it, wipe it down and run the cleaning car over it.  I have 14 engines now, both steam and diesel.  None of the 14 engines even stutter, and all are DCC.  The engine does not run the slightest bit jerky or loose power anywhere.

The oldest piece of track I own is 4 months old.  It is all Nickel Silver.  If 13 engines, including a 5" switcher, a 4" cable car with a single powered truck and (2) 0-4-0 steam engines run perfectly, I really don't believe that dirty track is the problem.  It is something else.   It may, in fact, be dirty wheels.  I do not have any good wheel cleaning devices yet, but I know I need to get some.

I am also not suggesting there is a design problem with the EM1 either.  It's reported to be Bachmann's best, and I believe it.   This Thursday I will do a comparison test with 2 other EM1's over at the club.  If mine does not pull as well as theirs, I have a direction to look.  If it does, ?  All I know is right now, it is being out pulled by my Riverossi 4-6-4 Hudson which is about 15 years old, was originally a DC engine and I installed a decoder in it, and that just isn't right!

[utdave]

have you removed the packing foam from the rear wheels   i had trouble with one of my steams that couldnt pull much up a grade   one day it derailed  and i saw the foam   and it fixed the promblem.  sometimes something so easy can be frustrating          dave

[Stephen D. Richards]

rbryce1,

I only got into this hobby in 2006 and so I'm fairly green still.  There has been a lot of great suggestions on this thread but I have a couple more that might help.  Every loco I get goes through a series of test/improvements.  I also check the amp draw to stall with a weight gauge designed to measurement the pull weight of the loco prior to stall speed.  MicroMark has the gauge if your interested.  It shows the max you can pull prior to stall speed/wheel slip/max amp draw.  It's a bit over the top but I just like doing that as part of the hobby!  I also do a final test prior to releasing the loco for duty on a 1.5% grade.  If it can't pull at least twenty five properly weighted cars then it's back to the shop!  I used to check the tractive effort by running the same train in the reverse direction of the grade.  I don't know how that might help but it could give you some idea of where the wheel slip might start.  Logically, if the wheels won't hold it back, then it won't pull either. This would also save your motors.  Just some more input to help.  Stephen

[electrical whiz kid]

I haven't seen much (if any) here with regards to good reliable trackwork.  Especially on a grade (which should have been very carefully planned as well as constructed), good high quality trackwork and consistency is required for reliable performance to be able to play a part.  Slapdash methods using bargain-basement JUNK for track, and poor planning will almost (except for the very lucky) anways guarantee disaster-and God help you if the track in question is in a long tunnel.  All the bullfrog snot in the world won't help this kind of problem.
RIch

Owner, president and chief cook and bottle-waasher of
THE PORTSMOUTH TERMINAL AND HOOSIC RR co.

[rbryce1]

You are right, there is not much regarding trackwork mentioned here, I assume because trackwork is probable recognized as not the issue.  Effective troubleshooting is to only consider the probable items which affect the overall problem and not confuse the issue with things which are most likely not the fault.  In this case, I don't think track work is the problem, because only one engine is affected.  The problem only comes into play when the EM1 is pulling up the grade.  The same problem is not occurring with the same cars being pulled up the same grade by:

(1) Bachmann F7A Erie Lackawanna diesel
(2) Bachmann F7A Erie Lackawanna and (1) Erie Lackawanna F7B diesel consist
(1) Bowser Alaska F7A diesel
(2) Bowser Alaska F7A diesels consist
(1) Bachmann Rio Grande EMD SD40 diesel
(1) Bachmann Alaska EMD SD40 diesel
(2) Bachmann Alaska EMD SD40 diesels consist
(1) Riverossi 4-6-4 Hudson Steam Engine w/ traction tires
(1) Riverossi 2-10-2 B & O Steam Engine w/ traction tires

I can fairly assume that if all these engines or engine combination are working just fine on the grade, and I am certain I have not purchased cheap bargain basement junk for track and put it together in a slapdash method.  Even though I agree that all the BFS in the world will not help this situation, I have comfortably eliminated this condition.

I have also, as I previously stated, disregarded the probability that the EM1 has a design flaw.  

To me, this means that my problem most likely is in the EM1's traction, like maybe dirt or oil on the traction wheels, for which I have ordered the equipment to do a really good wheel cleaning job, the EM1 has a gearing or gear alignment problem on this single engine, or this single EM1 engine may have a weak motor or the EM1 tender may be dragging wheels causing more resistance than the others are seeing.  Or something else.

Something else could also be the EM1's speed vs torque curve. If the EM1 is not moving at a high enough speed to generate enough sustaining torque to maintain speed at this condition, it will slow down, and it may easily be confused with traction slippage.   Remember, the EM1 has a single motor to drive all 8 axles, or 16 wheels.  That's a lot of gear resistance.  It may be the EM1 needs to be moving faster to generate enough torque to do this while the smaller engines are already working well into their torque curve at this speed and have far less gear and wheel resistance to deal with.

The pull test of my engine at the Suncoast Model Railroad Club layout hopefully may be completed this evening.  It may simply be, the 3% slope is just too much for the EM1 at slow speeds as the Bachmann suggests.

[jward]

i find it interesting thet the model em1 has trouble on a 3% grade, as the real ones worked cranberry in west virginia which was almost thet steep, i believe 2.7%......

one thing in your list of locomotives leaps out at me: the em1 is by far the biggest locomotive on the list.

are the wheels actually slipping or does it just lug on the grade? if it's not slipping the motor is probably too weak for the job, as you've surmised. but another possibility is that the locomotive is binding somewhere. since i don't have an em1 to test, this is only speculation. but what might be happening is that the em1 is not articulated enough in the vertical plane. that is, the two sets if drivers do not pivot up and down the way a diesel's trucks do. not really a problem with smaller steamers, but with a very long wheelbase like the two sets of drivers on the em1. not all wheels may be in contact with the rails anywhere the grade changes. one would think this would also be accompanied by a derailment problem in those areas, but it is something to look at.

[rbryce1]

Jeffery,

The place on the track where the problem is occurring is not where the slope starts or stops, it is in the center of the grade and the slope is very even and constant. BUT YOU DID MAKE ME LOOK AT SOMETHING I NEVER TOOK INTO ACCOUNT!

I notice a significant amount of turning resistance on the EM1 while passing through curves, even on flat curves, because the wheelbase is so long, even being articulated.  All of my slopes are on curves!  Running on the only track on this layout with turning radius large enough for the EM1 to maneuver, the engines are either pulling up or driving down 3% slopes, all on 22"R curves.  The diesel's trucks turn much tighter with the curves and the smaller steam engines are only half the length of the EM1's wheels.  I am willing to bet, the combination of the slope plus the added significant resistance in the turn on such a long wheel base, is requiring more throttle to maintain speed, which is exactly what I am seeing.

We had company this evening and I did not make it to the Club to test run the engine, but I am willing to bet the EM1 pulls like crazy on the club's incline, because the incline there is all on straight track.  If this turns out to be the case, I am satisfied, and will just have to run it with slightly more throttle, of which there is plenty available to give to it.  I will post after the test.

[Doneldon]

rb-

I'll bet that your anaylsis of the compounding problems for your EM is right on the mark. Often these impediments are worse than merely
additive; they can amplify one another. The big railroads had tables and formulas about the effects but all we can do with our minies is
guesstimate.

I don't have an EM but my impression from many posts about it on this board lead me to believe that the model is a little disappointing as a puller. I'm sure somebody will staighten me out about this if my impression is wrong.

                                                                                                                                     -- D

[rbryce1]

Right now I wouldn't say it is disappointing as a puller, as I have seen it pull 30+ cars over at out Model Railroad Club.  Although it will perform on 22" incline curves without any derailment problems, I think I have placed it in a specific environment where it cannot flex it's muscles as well as it can on either straight track or say 28" inclined curves.

However, I do have 28" curves for it on my permanent layout, which is still in the design phase.   I will just need to give it more throttle than the others when it is used on the Christmas layout which is restricted to 22" curves.

[railtwister]

Hi rbryce,

Your first post in this thread says that the loco slows on the grade, but you can't tell if it's spinning it's drivers or not. I would think you should be able to see and hear if it's a slipping problem, and if the wheels aren't actually slipping, then BFS is not going to help, and will only gum up a set of wheels, possibly reducing electrical pickup in the process. You go on to say (I think) that with added power it will make it up the grade with it's string of cars. Needing to add power to go up a steep grade sounds like fairly normal behavior, unless the loco is equipped with BEMF, in which case the BEMF should eliminate or reduce the need to add power going up the grade. Are you operating the loco on your home layout using DCC? Does your loco have a factory decoder with sound, or is it an after market installation? Do any of the other locos you are comparing the EM-1 to on the incline have BEMF?

Bill in FtL

[rbryce1]

Bill,

Lots of questions, hope I have the answers.  First, I have no DC engines.

Are the wheels actually slipping, I don't know for sure, I just know the engine slows down.  I cannot hear anything, but I've never heard this before, so I may not know what to listen for.

I can't say for sure, as where I am now I don't have the manual, but I would be extremely surprised to find it does not have BEMF.  It does have sound and it does have the factory decoders.

That being said, I really think my problem is the particular layout design I have been running the engine on.  This layout was never meant to run an engine like the EM1 because I never thought I would own one.  It was meant for large diesel consists (2-4 diesels), and it's slope is also on a curved section of track.  I have never had a problem with any size train using the diesels or the shorter wheelbase steam engines.  I knew that turns impose resistance on an engine, and I knew that the slope imposed resistance on an engine, but I did not anticipate the combination of the two may not be simply additive, but compounded exponentially, as it seems to be, especially on really long wheelbase engines like the EM1.  

The last thing that was on my get list was a really big steamer.  When I saw the EM1 and the Big Boy, I started thinking about it, but the cost was really up there.  At a recent train show, I found a new, sound equipped EM1 for an amazing price, and I broke down and bought it.

As I said either earlier in this post or on one of my other posts, the layout I have right now is a temporary Christmas layout, but as soon as it is relocated to the Living Room, we start building a permanent layout in the "train room" as we now call it.  The Christmas layout will be placed in storage until the next season.  The EM1 was purchased for the future permanent layout.

I really believe we have solved the issue of why the EM1 is having a hard time pulling up this particular incline, and that is because I not only have a fairly steep incline, but also because I am running it on a curved section of track with the minimum recommended 22" radius.  I really believe the combination of the two is putting much more resistance on this engine than it would normal encounter without the operator giving it more throttle.  With more throttle, it does gain some momentum, but I still can't determine if the wheels are actually slipping and causing some loss in traction.
 
After experiencing this, the new layout will be much more "EM1 friendly".