Figure 8 & Auto Reverse

[franzman]

We are trying to add another oval to our layout, with a figure 8 inside to be able to have the trains reverse directions - no matter which way they come from.  That new oval would have switches coming in and out from an existing oval.

Please know that we have all Bachmann EZ Track - including 2 Auto Reversers and 4 pieces of their Gap Track. 

Can anyone tell us how to set this up?  Where would the gap tracks need to go and where would the auto reversers need to be hooked up? (And is that all we would need in order to do this?)

This would be on an 8 by 4 board - so would also appreciate know what radius track we would need and what degree of crossing we would need.

Thank you - we really appreciate any help you are willing to give us.

Joyce
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[Terry Toenges]

Are you having two ovals and a figure 8 so it would be outside oval, inside oval, and figure 8 inside the the inside oval?

[franzman]

No - it's just one oval.  So it's a figure 8 on its side with straight track connecting the loops on the top and bottom.  It connects to another oval at one end that is part of our existing layout.
Thank you for your interest.

[jonathan]

Franzman.

This topic has been covered several times in the past.  Do a forum search for "figure 8" or double reverse loop or something similar.

In a nutshell, what you propose is so difficult electrically, that 99.99% of the modeling world does not attempt this.  I may be off a bit on my estimation.    It can be done I'm sure.  I can imagine a simple method where the oval part is electrically isolated from the inside, crossover section.  Then you'd need two polarity switches:  one for the oval and one for the inside crossing.  The gaps would go on the inside portion of all four turnouts, if you get my meaning.

1.  both switches are switched to the same polarity as the loco enters the inside of the figure 8.  
2.  switch polarity of the oval, for when the loco comes out of the inside.
3.  once the loco is back on the oval, switch the polarity in the inside for the next direction change.

Simple, sort of.  You need a pretty large connected figure eight, something bigger than a standard plywood board, to keep from going crazy, switching polarity all the time. And you'd have to plan ahead, polarity-wise, for which leg of the inside crossing you choose to enter.  I'm sure an automatic reverser might help ease the process.

If you get it to work, make a video, post it, and I will call you a genius beyond measure.

Now if your trains were large scale and battery operated, piece of cake.

Good luck.

Regards,

Jonathan

Adddendum.  I'm no electrician, so don't listen to me.

[Jerrys HO]

Joyce
As jonathan stated it is difficult to wire what you are proposing if you run DC. If you are DCC it is not that impossible. I have a similar set up but it is only half of the figure eight. Several suggested isolating almost every rail around my turnouts. I eventually took all my loco's off the rails hooked everything up only isolating where my track breaks off my main then again before it enters the main line. The isolated tracks were the one bachmann suggest to use with there reverse loop modules.
If you are DCC take all your locos off hook up your isolated tracks at each section where it breaks off the main. Pay close attention to the reverse modules, where it says in that is the side you want to plug the reverse module wiring to the underside of the track that is closer to the oval. Where it says out plug that wire into the same piece of track on the inner side facing the figure eight. The isolated section on the opposite side has no wires attached to it.
If you have something crossed the module will blink rapidly. The light should be solid red.
I have not done a full figure eight only one half so when you get to the crossover I don't know if the crossover is isolated from the other track. I do not have one to see but I would assume it is. In this section you may have to use jumper wire to feed the opposite side of the crossover.
This set up will not allow DC locos to run on it as there is no decoder in the loco.
If I could figure out how to draw it out on here I will post later.

Jerry

[franzman]

Jonathan & Jerry -
Thank you so much for your responses.  I should have clarified that we do have DCC and saved you some trouble.
Jonathan - in order to work on model trains, I think you have to be some sort of an electrician.  I tell my husband it is not a train hobby, it is an electrical hobby!
Jerry - I would love to see a diagram of your layout.  We have considered that as well, but still not sure where to put the gap track - and therefore the auto reversers.  (Of course, if I could figure out how to post a diagram, I'd show you what we were thinking along those lines.)
Thanks again, both of you.
Joyce

[VidGuy069]

All of my stuff is DCC as well.  The two pics (links to them) show a prior layout under construction.  it HAD 2 reverse loops and 2 figure 8s.  1 figure 8 for each oval.  Maybe you can get an idea for layout from the pics. 

http://www.diversionsonline.org/BachmannPics/DSCN2947
     and
http://www.diversionsonline.org/BachmannPics/DSCN29478

Of course I may totally misunderstand your questions an be completely off track.   

Anywho, good luck.
VidGuy069

[Jerrys HO]

Joyce

I have been drawing this out on my anyrail software and it looks to be impossible to do using the gapped track from bachmann in the space you are working with. You would have to cut the isolated gaps in a radius piece of track and solder your wires to the rails from the reversing module.
The other problem is your whole loco and rolling stock MUST fit in between those gapped sections.
Is it possible to go a little larger with your layout?

Jerry

[Doneldon]

VG69-

Your links don't work.

                         -- D

[jward]

if you make one of the curves on the end of the figure 8 the reversing section, you only need one autoreverser. plus, you gain a longer reversing section which means longer trains.

give me a day or so to make a drawing to post, showing where i'd make the gaps.

[Jerrys HO]

Joyce

This is a quick setup of what you are trying to accomplish. It will work but your trains would be limited to about 18" long, about two gp's long.
This is also planned on 4x9 as it would not fit on 4x8.



The red sction that is marked gap is where you would put the four gapped sections of track that goes with the auto reverse module that you have.
This set up would work a lot easier if you have the room to make the layout longer.
It would allow you to run longer trains thru the reverse section.

Hopefully Jeff will come up with something better.

Jerry

[jward]

as promised, here is the diagram for a basic figure 8 layout.




i have tried to keep the design simple, to illustrate the concept.     the reversing section is in red, with gaps on all rails at the ends of the red section.   by using part of the main line as the reversing section, you can lengthen the section to the length of your longest trains.     here i have assumed the longest train will be the one that fits between the crossing while travelling the figure 8.    if you are using an autoreverser, it will only switch polarity when a train travels the figure 8 and the straight part of the mainline. trains using either the figure 8, or the mainline oval, will not cause the reverser to operate as they are not reversing direction.

the plan jerry drew will work for dc, but the reversing section is far too short for dcc.

[franzman]

Wow you guys!  The diagrams are fantastic!!  Thank you so much for taking the time.

I have one question at this point for Jeffrey.  You said we would only need one auto reverse with this layout.  Which gap track spot would you recommend we hook it into, or does it matter?  I see where the four gap tracks would go - just don't know which one would need to be hooked up to the auto reverse.

Oh - I lied.  I do have another question.  Are these 18" radius curves, and is that a 90 degree crossing in your plan?

Thanks again - I can't believe how helpful you have all been.

Joyce

[jward]

to answer your questions:

i am not familiar with the gap tracks and their wiring.    i wire my track the old fashioned way.   instead of gap tracks, i use insulating rail joiners in place of the regular ones.   but i would recommend if you are using standard ez track to use the curved terminal track somewhere on the left end of the layout, and wire it into the autoreverser instead of the controller.   it is bad practice to feed power from the frog end of a track switch.   power should always be fed from the points end.   

as you surmised, the plan is using 18r curves, and a 90 degree crossing.   the plan is also drawn using atlas right track software. i tried to do one using the ez track library in anyrail, but couldn't find a way to colour highlight the reversing section.    the plan will work with ez track as well, but some components are slightly different.( the atlas snap switch is only 20 degrees, so it plus a 10 degree 18r section equal a standard ez track switch.)

[Jerrys HO]

Jeff
I don't see any reason my diagram would be better with dc as the crossovers would give you fits trying  to make them work as you well know. The only difference is I left the outer oval as Joyce stated. I just never thought of using part of the main line as the reversing section. Well done!

Joyce
I used anyrail to make mine. (wow jeff the two softwares look almost identical)
On  Jeff's  the gap tracks would go on the red side as close to the unmarked side as possible to get the most distance for running longer trains.
On my design the red sections are your gap tracks.
As Jeff stated it is bad practice to feed from the frog end of the switch but I have done this on both of my reversing loops with no problem's. If I were doing this set up I would wire the reversing module by the crossing. You only need one reversing module for this.

Jerry