Non-DCC locos

[Ballard Southern]

Hi, Dick in Seattle here with a first post.  Just found the forum.

I guess I am swimming upstream, but my new layout (just finished track and wiring) is DC.  I'm sure DCC is great in many situations, but for as simple a layout as I run it's way over complicated and expensive.  Layout is a 13' x 28"  point to point yard switching.  Wiring consists of making all the stub ends hot.  I have one DCC loco, the Forney.  The sound was amusing for about 20 minutes of a 1 hour intense operating session.   By 40 minutes, it's aggravating.  By the end of an hour, I'm ready to shoot the engine.   Aside from the sound, it does not run as well as my standard DC locos.  ( I have a monster big DC power supply, so it has plenty of power.)  I'll keep it to show off the layout, the sound is great for that, but I wouldn't want to buy another DCC.   

Thee related questions: 

1.  Can the sound be turned on and off within the engine?
2.  If you can disconnect the DCC, does this improve the DC performance?
3.  Is (was) the later model steel cab 4-4-0 loco available non-DCC equipped?

That's probably a lot for a first post, but it's what's bugging me at the moment.   

Dick

[richg]

Hi, Dick in Seattle here with a first post.  Just found the forum.

I guess I am swimming upstream, but my new layout (just finished track and wiring) is DC.  I'm sure DCC is great in many situations, but for as simple a layout as I run it's way over complicated and expensive.  Layout is a 13' x 28"  point to point yard switching.  Wiring consists of making all the stub ends hot.  I have one DCC loco, the Forney.  The sound was amusing for about 20 minutes of a 1 hour intense operating session.   By 40 minutes, it's aggravating.  By the end of an hour, I'm ready to shoot the engine.   Aside from the sound, it does not run as well as my standard DC locos.  ( I have a monster big DC power supply, so it has plenty of power.)  I'll keep it to show off the layout, the sound is great for that, but I wouldn't want to buy another DCC.    

Thee related questions:  

1.  Can the sound be turned on and off within the engine?
2.  If you can disconnect the DCC, does this improve the DC performance?
3.  Is (was) the later model steel cab 4-4-0 loco available non-DCC equipped?

That's probably a lot for a first post, but it's what's bugging me at the moment.  

Dick

I assume you are asking about On30 locos.

!. No. You will have to disconnect the sound decoder and plug in the six pin DC adapter. Expensive way to buy a loco if not interested in sound.

2. Yes, the loco will run better on DC this way.

3. Check the Product listing at near the top left of the Bachmann site.
   Also, look at the loco diagrams under parts and Service.

RIch

[richg]

Micro Mark sells the 4-4-0 steel cab with on board non sound DCC at an ok price. To my knowledge, all the On30 come with DCC non sound or DCC with sound.
Usually the loco diagrams show the DC adapter but not all diagrams show it very well sometimes.
The Favorite Spot has a bunch of On30 with better prices than Micro Mark.
I just looked at both places.

Rich

[railtwister]

Hi Dick,

1. The sound can be turned off by using the mute option (Function #8) but it is done using a DCC controller, since DC controllers can only control the voltage level and/or polarity.

2. Disconnecting the decoder will not improve performance overall. It may allow the loco to start at a lower voltage when running on DC, because the decoder uses the first few volts to power itself before passing any power on to the motor. Generally, dual mode decoder equipped locos will run much better on DCC than DC, because theyare designed to be controlled by DCC first, while DC control is an added feature.

3. The Spectrum On30 4-4-0's (both I.F. and O.F. models) come from the factory with DCC/DC decoders but no sound. If you want DC only, you can remove the decoder and install the DC jumper pins, which will make the loco strictly DC capable.

You say that the Forney doesn't run as well as your other locos, but you do not say in what respect, or what your other locos are. I have a couple of the Forneys myself, and find that they run quite well and are among my favorites, but there are caveats. The Forneys have a very long rigid wheelbase with a lot of overhang at the ends, thus requiring a wider curve radius to prevent derailing adjacent cars, and are also susceptible to coupling/uncoupling problems on curves and/or uneven track, especially track with abrupt vertical curves at grades or module joints. The prescence of DCC sound will indicate a loss of power on dirty track (or poorly wired turnouts with isolated frogs) much more quickly than a non-sound DC loco, because the sound will die, but removing the sound will not fix electrical pickup problems caused by dirty track or poor wiring.

If your track is clean, and free of dead spots (especially at turnouts), I think you'll find that DCC operation is actually much smoother and more precise than straight DC. The sound may not be for everyone, because it does add another level of complexity to controlling the loco, but with a DCC controller, you can turn it off when you tire of it, then back on when you want to play with it.

The Spectrum On30 inside frame 4-4-0 loco is a very small (actually tiny compared to other On30 equipment) loco which may be more forgiving of sharper curves and contact problems due to it's shorter rigid wheelbase plus the fact that it has more wheels on the rails to make electrical contact. They are also pretty heavy for their size, which makes them make better contact as well.

As for The Favorite Spot in Texas, I have found both their eBay store and website <www.thefavoritespot.com> provide excellent service with great pricing and fast turn around times on orders, and I recommend them highly. I have also received excellent service from John Weigel at the Peterboro Railroad <http://www.peterbororr.com/store/>. When ordering anything rather than picking it up at your local hobby shop, be sure that they actually have the items you want in stock. Many places advertise items in advance of actually receiving them, and this can delay your order, sometimes for many months.

I hope this helps,
Bill in FtL

[Ballard Southern]

Thanks, guys.    That's the info I needed, if not the answers I'd like to have gotten.   Ah, well.  Fortunately, from earlier adventures in On30 I have a number of non-DCC steamers.   My best runner is a Bachmann HO three truck Shay that was On30'ized, followed by an On30 Climax.   I also happen to very much like diesels and used to have a number of conversions on HO frames that ran well.  They got away during the 8 years I was out of railroading.  I'm sure I'll work up a couple more of those.

The Forney runs OK, just not as nicely as the others, takes a much touchier hand on the throttle, and yes, I understand that it will run better on DCC because it was designed to.  It has no real trouble on my track.  The layout is dead flat and I built with 26" curves and Pico mediums. 

My problem with DCC (as with much of modern life) is simply "why?".   If there are those who like it, fine, but why head an entire activity toward more complication and expense by essentially closing out the DC option.   It  makes it harder for us to get youngsters into it, and I fear the majority of us are getting rather long in the tooth.   I have had too many talks with young folks who take one look at an explanation of wiring issues and run screaming to become stamp collectors.   On the other hand, I can explain the wiring of a stub yard with power directing switches to an 8 year old and they get it.  The reaction is, "Hey, I can do that!"   Unfortunately, as I've gotten older, I need (or at least appreciate) the same simplicity as the 8 year old!

There's also the problem of being an engine collector... If I went DCC in HO I'd have to equip at least 40 engines!  Yikes!  I did order the 4-4-0 with DCC but not sound.  It will be interesting to compare it to the Forney.

Ah, well, life goes on and continues to change.   

Thanks again, and if anyone is in the Seattle area, get in touch and come on by, the coffee is always on.

Dick in Seattle
www.dickwightman.com

[railtwister]

Hi Dick,

I don't think you are giving the young folks credit, look how well they have taken to things like like computers, iPods, and Smart Phones while a lot of us old timers still can't figure out how to program the TV remote. As oldtimers, we already understand some of the basics of DC, or would have gotten out of the hobby long ago, but it it difficult for us to learn new things like DCC. There are times when I have a problem with the DCC and get frustrated to the point that I wonder why I still don't use DC, but eventually, I can get it sorted out and see the benefits of DCC. However, if the hobby is going to compete with video games and computers for the interest of the younger set, it needs to have more features than plain DC can offer, or they will get bored quickly, and move on to something else.

Like you, I have collected many locos during my years in the hobby, but i find that usually I only wish to run a few of them on my layout, while the rest are stored in boxes on the shelf. I really should get rid of most of them, but I find actually doing that is difficult, probably because I enjoyed acquiring them so much, it's hard to let go of them. Also, many of them (especially the expensive brass models) don't run nearly as well as today's offerings, much as I hate to admit it. All of your DCC & sound locos should be fairly easy to convert to straight DC, since most of them come with jumper pins or a jumper plug to fit into the socket once the decoder is removed. I would advise keeping the decoders around so that if you ever change your mind, or decide to trade or sell the locos, you can re-install them.

Bill in Ft Lauderdale

[richg]

Plain and simple, the hobby is evolving. I am 71 but have been a tech since I was 15. I know what it feels like to think we are being left behind. It will happen to out grand children. Bet on it.
This could never have been done with vacuum tubes. Digital circuits and programming made this all possible.
Digital is everywhere.
The hobby will continue to evolve like anything else.
I will agree, programming a VCR is probably the worst I have ever had to deal with but have not used one in over eight years.

Rich

[NarrowMinded]

If your handy with soldering I would just add a micro switch on one wire between the speaker and decoder, there is room in the bunker, this way you can turn it on for the Wow factor, and off when your shunting.

[quote Yes, the loco will run better on DC this way.

][/quote]

I run dc and dcc and have found that non-dcc locomotives that I have added a decoder to run Better when used on DC then they did before.