Real water in scenery

[railsider]

OK, I know the conventional wisdom is "don't" ... but I'm just enough of an experimental iconoclast to want to break that rule. So please don't cite it in this thread.

The big problems, as I understand it, are electrical shorts and the damage water does to scenery made of artificial materials. So we carefully avoid all such things. Also, water sitting there gets stagnant, stinky and unhealthy. So change it frequently, which means have a system to do this.

I have a decorative pump-driven waterfall that turns out to be precisely N scale, and in fact has a resin-cast loco on a bridge going over the falls. I will have to drill out the ends of the track section, grind the ceramic (waterproof) material down and lay track to integrate it into a layout, but the water does not splash anywhere close to the tack. I plan to have a drain-hose at the bottom so I can clean it out every session and add clean water regularly.

Has anyone tried this? and what did you learn?

I have seen several articles about real-water seaside and harbor scenes in hobby magazines. Nothing is really quite as realistic as the real thing, apparently.

Another plan is an HO swimming pool made from a plastic blister-pack. A scale swimmer with a small chip of rubber magnet glued to the chest floats in the pool. Underneath, out of sight, a magnet swings back and forth from one end of the pool to the other, dragging the swimmer on continuous laps. I fill and empty the pool with a squeeze-bulb syringe.

Animation is a sort of sub-hobby within the WGH with me, and I'd like to hear from others similarly afflicted.

Railsider

[Ken G Price]

Well, try it and see if it works for you. 
If nothing else you will stories to tell about the time water leaked onto the floor and you had to do repairs with money that you really did not have.

I have seen many post such as yours asking about this. So far, after many years I have not seen any finalized water scenes.

Like many things water just does not scale down.

[Doneldon]

rail-

If you're going to have a pump for a waterfall, why not just connect the hose
for that to drain the pond or whatever the waterfall flows into?
                                                                                             -- D

[jward]

you knpw the conventional wisdom is don't, but do you know why? here are some things to consider.

are you going to use homasote for your subroadbed? have you ever seen what humidity does to homasote? i have, and it's not pretty. matter of fact, many people i know put dehimidifiers in the train room, and these are people who don't have standing water on the layout.

also consider that water does not scale down. nothing looks like more like water than water, except for everything else. if you doubt this look at the old b movies where they put ship models in basins iof water. they don't look right because the water is out of scale.

another factor to consider is weight. water weighs 8 lbs per gallon. it doesn't take much area to use a gallon of water, you'll have to reinforce your benchwork in those areas where there will be water.

understand that what you are thinking about doing has been done before by others. if you want to reinvent the wheel go ahead, but at least do some serious research before you do irreparable damage to your layout.

[Skarloey Railway]

Won't the swimmer spent half its time swimming 'backwards' or sideways? Or is there an ingenious way of spiining the figure around so it always swims head first?

[rogertra]

are you going to use homasote for your subroadbed? have you ever seen what humidity does to homasote? i have, and it's not pretty.

Humidity effects the wood that you built your benchwork from.  Homasote, the real brand name Homasote, not some look alike product, is not affected by humidity.

From the Homasote web site: -  http://www.homasote.com/applications/hobby.aspx

"440 Homasote is used in dozens of artful ways by crafts people and hobbyists. It is lightweight, easy to cut with a mat knife or saw, has no splinters, and makes an excellent tackable surface. It's waterproof and can be used inside and out. Just use your imagination!"

You need to use the correct stuff and that's not just any old fibre board you find at your local hardware or big box store.

[jward]

that's not been my experience. mine has been that homasote swells and warps with moisture and wreaks havoc ontrackwork. that is why i no longer use it, and work with pine instead. once i redid an old layout with pine, mosst of my problems with trackwork went away.

homasote is made of compressed paper. paper absorbs moisture much more than regular wood does. 

[richg]

Recently discussed. Real water does not scale down but your reality might be different.

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,20924.msg166325.html#msg166325

Rich

[richg]

that's not been my experience. mine has been that homasote swells and warps with moisture and wreaks havoc ontrackwork. that is why i no longer use it, and work with pine instead. once i redid an old layout with pine, mosst of my problems with trackwork went away.

homasote is made of compressed paper. paper absorbs moisture much more than regular wood does. 

I have had track on Homasote buckle track real bad just from humidity and did not have any water nearby.

Rich

[jward]

same here. and since i handlay my track, i had major problems with it staying in guage. the dimensional changes in homasote due to moisture related swelling were enough to break solder joints on pc board ties, actually break the copper cladding loose from the pc board and shift it by as much as 1/8". and this on homasote i had painted with latex in an attempt to seal it, before it ever saw track. i can lay track on unpainted pine, and not have any of those problems. plywood would be even better if i were using regular track.

[Doneldon]

Jeff and Rich-

My experience is that Homasote is heaven to work with but hell to live with. It reacts significantly to even small humidity changes.


Skarloey-

It's possible to put a loose magnet on a turntable while restrcting its movement in a fixed oval channel. Thisw ould make the swimmer maintain forward motion. It's like the way they make model ice skaters move around a rink. In fact, a mechanism from a skating rink would be a natural choice for the animation.

                                                                                                                                                           -- D

[NarrowMinded]

 RE: Swimmer,

If you put a magnet on your swimmer and place him in a glass of water the polarization of the magnet will always turn to magnetic north like a compass, keep this in mind when placing your magnet or your swimmer may end up swimming sideways.

If I were going to due this I would just push a small piece of needle into the swimmers head then I would make some simple electro magnets to go on each end of the pool (like the wires wrapped around the nail type) You could regulate the swimmers speed depending on the voltage supplied to the coils. you would need a simple timer relay to switch the direction of your swimmer. If you are very crafty you maybe able to get the swimmers arms to move, you could cut them off at the shoulder and reattach them with string, place small pieces of needle in each arm, then by pulsing the electro magnets  in a long short long pulse the arms may moved like this.

Long pulse arms move forward and start to move the swimmer, short pulse arms start to move backwords, momentum keeps body moving forward then long pulse again Etc.

It's a long shot that it would look right but even if it wasn't perfect it would be neat.

NM-Jeff

[rogertra]

You guys that say your Homasote swells.

Are you using the real brand name "Homasote 440" or are you purchasing a similar pressed paper product that is NOT branded "Homasote 440".

Hardware and big box store clerks will try to convince you that any brand of sound insulation is "Homasote" or "It's just as good."  It's not, don't buy it.

I've used Homasote for over 20 years and had zero problems related to Homasote.  My issues were with benchwork being affected by changes until the lumber acclimatised.

If it was a bad as you guys are claiming, it would NOT be recommended so highly all the model press articles.

[jward]

there are alot of things in the model press that don't work as well in practice as they do in the controlled environment of the magazine's workshop. most of us don't have $5k to spend on the train room before we ever start on the layout.

as an example of what i am talking about, how many times have you seen layout plansusing 18r snap switches in crossovers? that's an 18r reverse curve that will cause derailment problems whenever you try to back trains through it.

or how about the practice of gluing track down as you lay it, thus ensuring that any defects in the track are difficult to correct?

how many times have you seen products that are total junque get good reviews in the magazines?

most of us build and operate our trains under real world conditions, which are far from perfect. we fight an ongoing battle against dust and humidity with the resources we have.

interesting that you'd have problems with the wood frame but not the homasote? perhaps you bought a lesser grade of wood used for wall studs? spending a little more for good quality kiln dried pine means warping won't be a problem, even under damp, humid conditions. using wood strong enough for the benchwork you are building also helps. even the best quality wood and plywood will warp and sag if it isn't thick enough to support the weight. my recommendations are 1x4 for all framing members, and no less than 1/2" plywood for your subroadbed. better to overbuild than have a weak foundation.

[rogertra]

Been a modeller since the early 1960s.

These days I build all my benchwork from 3/4 Birch workshop grade plywood.

I have used real Homasote since the 1970s.  Not some pressed paper product that looks like Homasote.

I don't use cheap wood.  My last GER was built using 1 x 3 and 1 x 4 seasoned lumber using the "L" girder method.

As I am after realism and follow the prototype although I freelance, all my track from back in my handlaid days to the current GER being built with code 83 flex track and No. 6 switches is glued down.  Later, it was be ballasted with a 4 to 1 water to glue ratio.  Gluing down track, I use white glue, does NOT make it difficult to modify your track, I've moved several switches already with absolutely no problems.

You can see my standards of track laying from the photos in my sig. and my current progress by checking the following link where you will see, if you look closely enough, where I have moved switches to improve the traffic flow in the yard throat.

http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/The%20new%20Great%20Eastern%20Railway/