Spectrum SPC 440 size

[mickeykelley]

I was recently looking at my Spectrum SPC 4-4-0 which I have not used in a while and had it next to my 2-8-0 and Shay.  It seems kind of small.  I know they were old engines and were not as large in the real world, but I'm talking about comparing the windows and interior cab height.  Is it just my imagination or is it not really 1:20.3.  The reason I was comparing is that I have my son's old passenger cars (with plastic hand rails 97218) that came with his first standard 4-6-0 Deadwood (probably from 1995-96)  in storage and trying to decide on how they would look behind both vs the AMS/Accucraft ones which are A LOT MORE $ vs getting the Bachmann J&S. 

Also, are the cars with his old set the 1:20.3 or 1:22? And how do they compare to the current J&S cars?

[JerryB]

The Bachmann 4-4-0, 2-8-0 and Shays are highly accurate 1:20.3 models with dimensions that are virtually 100% correct as scaled from their prototypes. The 4-4-0 is a model of a small locomotive.

As to the cab size, many early prototype locomotives, including the 4-4-0 had very small crew spaces. That, and the fact that people were smaller in the late 1800s make them appear too small by today's standards.

Your son's Big Hauler set is nominally 1:22.5 scale, but with liberties taken, especially in the overall (further fore-shortened) length of the cars. If you are interested in scale fidelity, they are really too small to operate with 1:20.3 scale equipment.

The Accucraft cars are also very accurately scaled 1:20.3 models. They are a lot larger than the B'mann Big Hauler cars. There were comparison pictures recently posted here on the Bachmann board. Take a look at this page:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,20825.0.html

Some folks question the fact that accurately scaled cars appear to overwhelm the size of the locomotives, but that is reality. Here is a link to a picture of the (restored) prototype E&P's 4-4-0 Eureka pulling a passenger car and a caboose:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=374236&nseq=4

The visible size differences are a reality of early day railroading. Be sure to scroll down below the picture to read more about the train. Also note that there is a link on the pix page that takes you to more pictures of the Eureka in action.

Hope this helps & Happy RRing,

Jerry

[Sleeping Bear]

  Hey guys...
          this is the thread in question with the comparison pics....http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,20825.0.html



      hope this helps.......later all......S.B.

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Jerry, thanks for the E&P pic on the D&S.  My niece works for the D&S and alerted me about it, but I couldn't make it.  I am told it will be back and also run on the C&TS.  That is one great pic.  Wow!!

To me it is a great example as to how I run my 4-6-0's with other loco's which are 1:20.3 and get away with it.

Beautiful loco!!

[Skarloey Railway]

That's a nice picture of the Eureka. Nothing to my mind beats looking at pictures of the real thing to inform your modelling. So many people these days seem to follow other model RRs rather than referring back to real railroading.

One thought occurred to me though, what is the photographer standing on? From what I recall of the D&S there's a 400' drop around here!

Re the locos performance, since she's carying her original boiler I think the pressure is limited to below what it was when she was built.

[emjayw]

I regularly run my D&RG spectrum 4-4-0 followed by a 1:20.3 scale 20' Boxcar and 2 D&S 1:22.5 coaches from the Bachmann set and they look great together. (to my "untrained" eyes, anyway)  If it looks okay to you, go ahead and enjoy it.  Don't let the "purists" spoil your fun.  Mike in TX

[mickeykelley]

I guess I just didn't realize how much difference there was between the engine and the cars.  Unfortunately the AMS/Accucraft will just have to wait for now with the price they are at now.

The other question related to the cars I have now vs the Bachmann J&S as to differences.

[Loco Bill Canelos]

The cars are measurement wise exactly the same size.  The older cars have battery powered lights and the plastic handrails, while the newer cars have track powered lighting and metal handrails.  The new cars are in the 89xxx series as opposed to the 97xxx series older cars.  They are all nominally considered to be 1:22.5.  What looks ok to me bugs some others, so dig them out and put them behind the 4-4-0 and make your own decision. I think the cars look fine behind my Spectrum 2-6-0 which is very close to the 4-4-0.  I am definitely not a purist for sure.  In all my years running that passenger train no one has ever said they look funny together. 

Enjoy your new loco!!
Bill

[emjayw]

Well said!

[Sleeping Bear]

   When it comes right down to it...its your rail road and you can run what you like and if someone doesn't like the way it looks ....then they really don't have to look at it do they......enjoy your trains guy....Later All......S.B.

[norman]

Hi guys:

The Spectrum 1:20.3 narrow gauge 4-4-0 loco with the 1:22.5 J&S coaches looks "OK" to many of us, myself included, as this is the correct size relationship of a standard gauge 4-4-0 ( larger loco ) to a standard gauge J&S coach!

Are the 1:22.5 J&S coaches sized "wrong" for use with the 1:20.3 narrow gauge 4-4-0 loco?  Yes.  Do I care?  No !

The Accucraft J&S 1:20.3 coaches are of a later time period and are actually far too large for use with the Spectrum 4-4-0 1:20.3 loco.

The Accucraft J&S 1:20.3 coaches are of the exact correct size for use with the Bachmann K-27 1:20.3 loco.
Same time period.

The Bachmann 1:22.5 J&S coach is actually a correctly modeled coach. These were cataloged as a "short" J&S coach and were purchased for use by 2 foot gauge railroads.

The bottom line is LGB created large scale using 1:22.5 metre gauge locos on gauge 1 track and later introduced 1:22.5 Amercian "Old West style" narrow gauge locos and coaches. Then there was also the Delton 1:24 scaled C-16 loco, freight and coaches. The "incorrect" 1:24 scale is my favourite scale as the size of the locos and rolling stock is suitable for both indoor and outdoor layouts.

The 1:20.3 product line by Bachmann is exact and geared to satisfy the rivet counters and the folks moving from HO scale to large scale who demand exactness.

Large scale is a mess as all the mfgs clearly did not plan things correctly from their initial product offerings. They simply filled the market demand for cute American Old West style locos and rolling stock to be compatible with LGB. Now large scale has evolved where the market place demands correct track gauge to model scale relation.

Personally, I would have preferred 1:24 scale to have been adopted with the correct narrower track gauge but of course this was impossible as LGB was large scale.

What is the solution for a correct J&S coach to use with the Bachmann 4-4-0 loco?

Lee Riley needs to design another correct short ( 12 window ) J&S coach in 1:20.3 scale of the same time period as when the Baldwin 4-4-0 was built.

Would enough folks be willing to pay twice or three times the price of the Bachmann 1:22.5 J&S coach for a correctly scaled Bachmann 1:20.3 J&S coach? The 1:22.5 J&S coach is starting to look to be the "correct" size now doesn't it?



Mr. Bachmann, is there any chance of a production run of green DRGW 1:22.5 J&S coaches ?



Norman

[steamrusty]

Hey norman,
the accucraft coaches will fit to the 4-4-0. Look at the models of David Fletcher (Bronson Tate). These models are 1:20,3, period 1870/1880. Wide is ~11", length ~24". The coaches where oversized to the engines.
The first D.&R.G. where a little narrow because they had seats 2/1 not 2/2. I think measures differs between the RR-companies, also the length.
A bigger problem for me are the freight cars. The oldtimers where smaller than the modern once. Are the 20' models of Bachmann correct types. The look very small just like 2 feet stuff. I am looking for plans for modelling some oldtime freight cars but it is very dificult to find some. I am from Germany and here you can't get so much "paperwork" of US narrow gauge.
steamrusty

[StanAmes]

The problem with any discussion of this type is that it depends on which era and prototype you are modeling. The AMS cars are excellent for later D&RGW passenger cars.  I have several and they look great.  As shown in the photo of the prototype on the D&S they are rather large when compared to the 4-4-0 which was built in a different age when shorter and smaller cars were around.

The 4-4-0 prototype folks are currently recreating one of these smaller cars to go with their locomotive.  This car will seem rather small when compared to the larger cars on the D&S.

http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,219528

Hope that helps

Stan Ames

[Skarloey Railway]

SPC coach

Nice side view of an SPC Carter Bros coach about a third of the way down this page.
http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/builders/carterbros.htm
It doesn't look short to me.

I suppose if you're just playing trains in the garden, then it doesn't much matter what scale anything is so long as your happy, but I wouldn't call it railroad modelling.

[Kevin Strong]

The Accucraft J&S 1:20.3 coaches are of a later time period and are actually far too large for use with the Spectrum 4-4-0 1:20.3 loco...

Not really. True, in the mid 1870s when the 4-4-0s were first being built, the passenger coaches were narrower, with 2-1 seating (double seats on one side of the aisle, single seats on the other.) This pattern was reversed in the middle of the car so to keep the loading equal when filled. This stemmed from the early belief that the "ideal" width for rolling stock was twice the gauge. Car builders couldn't build high-capacity passenger equipment with only a 6' width, so they were really "pushing the envelope" by going to 7' 6". These cars are usually somewhat easy to pick out in photos due to the smokestack from the stove typically being in the middle of the coach where the "transition" was made. Most were 13-window coaches (at least from Billmeyer & Small and Jackson & Sharp), with some having slightly wider windows in the center as well. In terms of length and height, these cars were very similar to the "later era" passenger cars, usually between 35 - 38' over the length of the car body itself. People were roughly the same size in 1870 as they were in 1910, so even the early cars had to be built to comfortably accommodate them. 

A mere 5 years later, by 1880, it had been demonstrated that narrow gauge rolling stock could be reliably built to 8' wide and still maintain stability, so car builders felt comfortable building a passenger car wide enough to accommodate 2-2 seating and still be stable on 3' gauge track. Thus the widths of the cars increased between 9" - 12", but the length and height of the car stayed more or less constant. There was some slight variation in width and height, but usually no more than 6" in any given direction. Lengths varied based on capacity and purpose, but still stayed mostly under 40' long over the car body. Some railroads like the Boston, Revere Beach & Lynn had "larger" cars, but still stayed around 8' 9" wide, and lengths stayed under 45' long. (There are some who claim the BRB&L coaches were built to "standard gauge" sizes, but that's not the case when compared to actual standard gauge coaches.)

Freight equipment is a slightly different story. There, you can see a marked increase in size from the 1870s to the 1910s. Widths and heights increased by as much as 2', and lengths increased around 5' depending on the type of car. A train made up of 1870s sized freight equipment looks a lot smaller than a train made up of 1910s vintage equipment. (It's coincidentally akin to the difference between 1:22.5 and 1:20.3 models of similar prototypes. I use a lot of 1:22.5 cars "upsized" to 1:20.3 just by changing a few details on my railroad, and they scale almost perfectly to known dimensions of the early equipment.)

Another thing to consider is that the 4-4-0s lasted in regular service on many roads well into the 20s and 30s. Even if the J&S coaches are of a later vintage, they would have easily been pulled by 4-4-0s and locos of similar size. Historically, railroads didn't care about aesthetics near as much as us modelers do. If the car carried something that made them money, and the locomotive pulled it, they were happy.

The upshot is that the 4-4-0 looks good with both 1:22.5 and 1:20.3 equipment because equipment of both sizes would have been pulled by that locomotive over its operational history. Technically speaking, the Bachmann and LGB passenger cars are a little low for 1:20.3, and your passengers would be hitting their heads on the doors, but their width is pretty spot-on for an early 2-1 coach. If that's whacha got, run with it!

4-4-0 with accurate 1:20 coaches


4-4-0 with LGB 1:22.5 coaches