Bypassing EM-1 DCC

[combatready_2003]

Hello Everybody,

I volunteer at the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum and recently purchased a B&O 2-8-8-4 EM-1. I would like to run it on the Museum's HO scale layout but the power requirements is beyond what the layout is able to provide without negatively affecting the other DC locomotives on the layout   . How difficult would it be to to convert the EM-1 from DCC to DC?

                                                                                                                                                     Thanks

[jonathan]

CR,

I have enjoyed that museum, and will do so again!  I hate to answer a question with another question, but... Will the EM-1 run on that layout given the radius requirements?  I have seen the neato layout in the passenger car.  Seems a bit tight for the EM-1.  I'm probably wrong.

Anyway,  here's a photo of the board in the tender:

I'm guessing there is a way to manipulate the wires attached to the tabs in order to bypass the decoder.  However, I haven't studied it very closely, as I addded the sound modules to both mine. Neither, were there instructions included on how to do so.

Perhaps, someone will see the photo and be able to tell us.

Regards,

Jonathan

[richg]

Hello Everybody,

I volunteer at the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum and recently purchased a B&O 2-8-8-4 EM-1. I would like to run it on the Museum's HO scale layout but the power requirements is beyond what the layout is able to provide without negatively affecting the other DC locomotives on the layout   . How difficult would it be to to convert the EM-1 from DCC to DC?

                                                                                                                                                     Thanks

Define what you mean by power requirements?
It sounds like you need a power pack that is capable of more amps.
I am quite sure Jonathan can answer this as he has this loco.
To my knowledge, it will requite re-wiring from the photos of the tender so that the loco decoder and sound module do not work. Just the motor and lights.
If someone knows electrical, not a problem, but you might need resistors for the LED's which I assume it has.
It would be nice if you sign your name in a message.

Also, consider the warranty if you modify.

Rich

[richg]

Ok, just as I suspected. This will be a challenge if you do not understand electrical and how locos are wired for DCC with light bulbs or LED's.
Are you trying to run this on DC when other locos are running?

Rich

[richg]

Ok, just as I suspected. This will be a challenge if you do not understand electrical and how locos are wired for DCC with light bulbs or LED's.
Are you trying to run this on DC when other locos are running?

Rich

A loco with a decoder will require a higher DC staring voltage than a loco with no decoder if you are not aware of this issue.

Rich

[2-8-8-4]

OK, I'm having a bit of a difficult time fully understanding the question here:

I just checked the manuals that come with the Bachmann EM-1, and they clearly state it is "100% backwards compatible with DC power systems".

So the only issue I can see is if one is attempting to run other trains at the same time on the same track, they will begin moving prior to the Bachmann EM-1, because it could take something like 7.5 volts or maybe 8 volts for the sounds to come on in DC and for the engine to start moving.

My only power supply is the MRC Sound Controller 2.0.  It is highly recommended for those folks who want to buy DCC locomotives and run them on a regular DC layout--in addition to having a plain DC operating mode, at the push of a button (to DCC mode) it provides a pseudo form of DCC that allows the user to access many (but not necessarily all) DCC functions--and it's cheap--well under $100 if I recall, less than the price of most other power supplies. 

In plain DC mode, the EM-1 for me does not seem to draw much voltage prior to the start of movement--but without installing a voltmeter in the circuit I have no idea exactly what the minimum voltage is to actually move the engine.

A reputable store will as a minimum allow a prospective buyer to try one out in plain DC mode in the store.  If anyone has concerns, I urge them to try one in a store.

It's a monster of an engine the runs monstrously well.  I've owned the Athearn latest run Big Boy, the latest version BLI Y-6B, and several MTH engines including the latest UP Challenger (all prior to my recent dallying with diesels)--and the Bachmann EM-1 runs every bit as well or better than any of the others.

Some recent Intermountain GEVO's do require a lot of voltage to run in plain DC mode--this is because Intermountain had the decoder designed to run with the sound equipped versions--so they may actually require 14 volts or 15 volts in plain DC mode, which is more than some power supplies provide.  Therefore, for some folks the Intermountain GEVO's will run only very slowly in plain DC mode (as Model Railroad News stated in their review, the Intermountain engine is really designed to run in DCC).

However, we are talking about the Bachmann EM-1 here, and in my opinion it requires nowhere near the voltage of an Intermountain GEVO to operate nicely in plain DC mode--though again, I don't have a voltmeter hooked up.

Respectfully submitted--

John

[2-8-8-4]

Opinions of others will differ, but once I put an EM-1 on the track nobody in my basement will be paying attention to any other trains that I might have on the mainline at the same time.  So for me the question would become (in plain DC) why on earth would I possibly want any other engine to share the mainline with an EM-1, unless it's another EM-1?

And this is coming from a long time Santa Fe/WP/UP/SP fan--not an "eastern road" guy at all.  My (former brass collector) friends (who expect outstanding locomotive performance) said the Bachmann EM-1 was a heck of a good engine at a heck of a good price.  I initially laughed that off, even as I was buying Athearn Genesis SP 4-8-2's, but I'm not laughing now--it's a great engine!  Bang for the buck!  More impressive than those little tiny girly-man 4-8-2's.

Respectfully submitted--

John

P.S. I also do own two Bachmann Alco 2-6-0's--also wonderful engines for the money.

Disclaimer:  the last line above "Respectfully submitted" was meant to be entirely facetious, perhaps mildly sarcastic, and only a reference to brute physical strength and nothing more.  In no way whatsoever was I making fun of any locomotive's (or human's) particular orientation.

[Atlantic Central]

Regardless of statements by Bachmann or other manufaturers, dual mode DCC decoders are not 100% compatible with all DC throttles.

I use Aristo Train Engineer wireless radio throttles which use constant voltage pulse width modulation for motor control just like the motor output from a DCC decoder.

Many other advanced DC throttles use similar motor control wave forms that will not work with dual mode decoders.

This type of signal confuses the dual mode decoder causing it not to function correctly.

The best thing to do with an EM-1 for DC operation would be to remove the tender circuit board and the motor mounted capacitors and rewire the loco using suitable resistors and diodes for the LED lighting.

Sheldon

[combatready_2003]

OK, I'm having a bit of a difficult time fully understanding the question here:

I just checked the manuals that come with the Bachmann EM-1, and they clearly state it is "100% backwards compatible with DC power systems".

So the only issue I can see is if one is attempting to run other trains at the same time on the same track, they will begin moving prior to the Bachmann EM-1, because it could take something like 7.5 volts or maybe 8 volts for the sounds to come on in DC and for the engine to start moving.

My only power supply is the MRC Sound Controller 2.0.  It is highly recommended for those folks who want to buy DCC locomotives and run them on a regular DC layout--in addition to having a plain DC operating mode, at the push of a button (to DCC mode) it provides a pseudo form of DCC that allows the user to access many (but not necessarily all) DCC functions--and it's cheap--well under $100 if I recall, less than the price of most other power supplies. 

In plain DC mode, the EM-1 for me does not seem to draw much voltage prior to the start of movement--but without installing a voltmeter in the circuit I have no idea exactly what the minimum voltage is to actually move the engine.

A reputable store will as a minimum allow a prospective buyer to try one out in plain DC mode in the store.  If anyone has concerns, I urge them to try one in a store.

It's a monster of an engine the runs monstrously well.  I've owned the Athearn latest run Big Boy, the latest version BLI Y-6B, and several MTH engines including the latest UP Challenger (all prior to my recent dallying with diesels)--and the Bachmann EM-1 runs every bit as well or better than any of the others.

Some recent Intermountain GEVO's do require a lot of voltage to run in plain DC mode--this is because Intermountain had the decoder designed to run with the sound equipped versions--so they may actually require 14 volts or 15 volts in plain DC mode, which is more than some power supplies provide.  Therefore, for some folks the Intermountain GEVO's will run only very slowly in plain DC mode (as Model Railroad News stated in their review, the Intermountain engine is really designed to run in DCC).

However, we are talking about the Bachmann EM-1 here, and in my opinion it requires nowhere near the voltage of an Intermountain GEVO to operate nicely in plain DC mode--though again, I don't have a voltmeter hooked up.

Respectfully submitted--

John

OK. Here is what I'm trying to do. I want to run my EM-1 (DCC, no sound) on the HO scale layout at the B&O Museum to make the layout more impressive by having it pull a long train. The layout at the Museum only supplies about 7-8 volt which is insufficient to run the EM-1 with the DCC installed. Initially I thought I can unplug the DCC and install a dummy plug like my 2-6-6-2, which runs great BTW, but that turned out not to be the case with the EM-1. Judging by the other replies though converting to just DCC will much more difficult than I had counted on. The simplest solution would be to increase the voltage to one track and just have the EM-1 run by itself but the museum staff are extremely resistant to that idea. 

[combatready_2003]

Opinions of others will differ, but once I put an EM-1 on the track nobody in my basement will be paying attention to any other trains that I might have on the mainline at the same time.  So for me the question would become (in plain DC) why on earth would I possibly want any other engine to share the mainline with an EM-1, unless it's another EM-1?

And this is coming from a long time Santa Fe/WP/UP/SP fan--not an "eastern road" guy at all.  My (former brass collector) friends (who expect outstanding locomotive performance) said the Bachmann EM-1 was a heck of a good engine at a heck of a good price.  I initially laughed that off, even as I was buying Athearn Genesis SP 4-8-2's, but I'm not laughing now--it's a great engine!  Bang for the buck!  More impressive than those little tiny girly-man 4-8-2's.

Respectfully submitted--

John

P.S. I also do own two Bachmann Alco 2-6-0's--also wonderful engines for the money.

Disclaimer:  the last line above "Respectfully submitted" was meant to be entirely facetious, perhaps mildly sarcastic, and only a reference to brute physical strength and nothing more.  In no way whatsoever was I making fun of any locomotive's (or human's) particular orientation.

Actually my plan was to run the EM-1 by itself with a long string of cars. I thing that would be most impressive especially with the children. Right now I'm running a C&O 2-6-6-2 and a N&W 2-8-8-2 Yellowstone with great results. 

[combatready_2003]

Hello Everybody,

I volunteer at the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum and recently purchased a B&O 2-8-8-4 EM-1. I would like to run it on the Museum's HO scale layout but the power requirements is beyond what the layout is able to provide without negatively affecting the other DC locomotives on the layout   . How difficult would it be to to convert the EM-1 from DCC to DC?

                                                                                                                                                     Thanks

Define what you mean by power requirements?
It sounds like you need a power pack that is capable of more amps.
I am quite sure Jonathan can answer this as he has this loco.
To my knowledge, it will requite re-wiring from the photos of the tender so that the loco decoder and sound module do not work. Just the motor and lights.
If someone knows electrical, not a problem, but you might need resistors for the LED's which I assume it has.
It would be nice if you sign your name in a message.

Also, consider the warranty if you modify.

Rich

The layout museum provides about 7-8 volts which I found out is not enough to move the EM-1. Replacing the DCC with a dummy plug like I did with Bachmann's 2-6-6-2 is not possible with the EM-1. just wondering if there was another simple solution to the problem. My other option was to simply increase the voltage to the track I plan on running the EM-1 on and let it run by itself but the other volunteers that are task with maintaining the layout are STRONGLY opposed to the idea me messing around with "their" layout for fear of damaging the computer that run's the layout. I understand that I would be throwing the warranty out the window if I start trying modifying the EM-1. Judging by the replies I got modifying the EM-1 would be very difficult for me to accomplish a probably not worth the risk.


                                                                                                                                                                   Ramsey

                                                                       

[Jerrys HO]

Ramsey,

You say you can isolate one track for higher voltage.... is it possible to add a DCC controller to that one track to run the EM-1? Other's may not suggest running DC and DCC near each other  for obvious reasons but if you could disconnect any switch or crossover to the track you are running it could be possible without any disaster's.
I am trying to think of an alternate plan so other's can enjoy the EM-1. This has been talked about on another post. Heck the club may want to convert to DCC after that.

Jerry

[richg]

DCC decoders require about 5 VDC to even begin operating. The Integrated circuits are usually five volt logic. A microprocessor and associated electronics need to be fully operational. The loco motor usually requires 7 to 9 volts to begin moving depending on the weight of the loco, gear train resistance, weight of cars behind, etc.
If a sound loco, the sound can usually start before the loco begins moving.
Some who do not understand what is involved generally have issues.
Get a real model railroad DC power pack.
To my knowledge for this particular loco, it has to be rewired for DC operation with no decoder.

Rich

[Atlantic Central]

The museum layout uses a microprocessor controlled form of DC control, I know, I know the guy who built and installed the controls. Tapping in DCC or changing the voltage is not easily done. It was built as a display layout in this fashion on purpose.

The only real answer is to rewire the loco, as I discribed.

Sheldon

[combatready_2003]

Ramsey,

You say you can isolate one track for higher voltage.... is it possible to add a DCC controller to that one track to run the EM-1? Other's may not suggest running DC and DCC near each other  for obvious reasons but if you could disconnect any switch or crossover to the track you are running it could be possible without any disaster's.
I am trying to think of an alternate plan so other's can enjoy the EM-1. This has been talked about on another post. Heck the club may want to convert to DCC after that.

Jerry

The layout does have a few switches and crossovers they are just decoration and do not function. I think I'm going to purchase a separate tender to experiment on.