Old Timers' Reminiscing

[john tricarico]

well guys we al remember the great products
how about some of the great prices
who remembers here in n.y.c the MAYS department store after christmas sale
on A.H.M. .. with absoulty low ball prices back around 1971-1974
GG1s for 15.99
BIG BOYS for 19.99
CAB forwards for 19.99
a.h.m. passenger cars as low as 2.99
they had a full page ad in the n.y. daily news

now to reminice and wonder what ever happened to those good old days
but that was then

[2-8-8-4]

I have had to wait on people and find parts for many of those same AHM and Rivarossi locomotives!

To quote my friend, Rich, a sales manager of a fine train store today--they were "lewd and crude".  3-pole motors---Yuck!

Perhaps they ran ok by 1980 standards, but no thank you--I'll take today's engines over any of those in a second, even at today's prices.

Mr. English explained on more than one occasion that had they not worked a deal with AHM to service the trains many years ago if they could buy them at a competitive price (relative to the big box stores that had them), that had it not been for that one significant deal, that his train store would have been gone many years ago.  Being able to stock parts for and service those engines was the beginning of English's becoming a distributor for several product lines...and ultimately kept them in business to today.

In 1973, the first time I entered that store at about age 4 1/2 or 5, it was just a small store like so many others that have passed on (except they had a train factory in the back room making Bowser, Cal-Scale, etc.--which I later also helped to do).

I also think he would be a little bit sad to see just how many of the small train stores are gone.

John


I live in Marysville, PA, and have only really embraced/understood/appreciated steam power in recent years.  I had always preferred the Alco Century series diesels, but after awhile one realizes that they are not as interesting on the layout as steam power...well at least if you are me.

[Desertdweller]

I'm not experienced with Mantua, but did have a Tyco freight set.  It performed well, but the Tyco cars did not mix well with the Athearn ones.

This set had the GP-20 (mine was CB&Q).  It used what I thought was an ingenious drive system.  The drive was a unitized assembly that was integrated into one of the trucks.  It was the front truck, so the width was there to accommodate the motor.  The only wiring I recall was used to power the headlight.  The rear truck was not powered, and the power assembly was held together with rivets.

The drive unit was exceptionally smooth and quiet.

Something happened to Tyco in the 1980's.  Apparently, they managed to get their pectorals in a laundry squeezer.  I see their name on a lot of medical equipment, but not on model trains.  I think Mantua somehow managed to separate themselves from the mess.

They were a good brand of entry-level HO trains.  They competed with Bachmann and Life-Like.

Les

[RAM]

Well you were Lucky that the drive unit was exceptionally smooth and quiet.  Most of them were not.  Tyco went under, and the Tyco you see on medical equipment is not in any way connected.

Tyco and Bachmann were at the low end of quality for year.  Bachmann with the help of good management, is now near the top.  Most of the low end companies are no longer in business.

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

Something happened to Tyco in the 1980's.  Apparently, they managed to get their pectorals in a laundry squeezer.  I see their name on a lot of medical equipment, but not on model trains.  I think Mantua somehow managed to separate themselves from the mess.

I dug some of my documentation out of the library. 

In 1967 Mantua Metal Products Co. and Tyler Manufacturing became part of a new corporation called Tyco Industries. In 1970 the Tyler family sold the company to an outfit called Consolidated Foods. The Tyler family bought back their old facility in New Jersey in 1977 and reestablished the Mantua name. Mantua shut down for good in 2001.

[2-8-8-4]

The Mantua and Mantua Tyco power truck was smooth and quiet for the era--especially so when run regularly (ie not only in December, but the rest of the year) and properly broken in.  I spent countless hours enjoying those engines.  The same power truck was used in most of the Mantua-Tyco diesels.  They only changed the plastic sideframes to "match" the "model".  Those diesels had a (presumably lead) weight in the fuel tank area that was stamped "Mantua - Tyco".  Things didn't change right away after the sale--it took years for the junk to come in.

In fall of 1975 is about when things went south.  They packaged some of the remaining Mantua-Tyco stuff in engine and caboose sets.  The box had a "Limited Offer - Special Value" diagonal band across it--and it said Tyco on the box (today we might recognize that as "final blow out").  Those engines still had the good power truck.  They definitely had special sets of Illinois Central Gulf, Soo Line, Chessie System and I'm not sure what all other roadnames of the Alco C430 diesel with the good power truck, though the cabooses had the junky plastic axles already.  Many dealers still had the good quality engines available for years after that--it wasn't like today--stock did linger for years before it was sold.  You could still buy 1960's Mantua stuff in the late '70's if you knew or cared what to look for.

I vividly remember fall of 1975 because that Christmas was my "best" toy Christmas ever.  I was 7, and had bugged my Dad for months for one of those ICG orange C430's (not knowing or caring they weren't prototypical at all).  I was very happy on Christmas day, thanks to Dad.

However, the next Tyco engines came in the infernal "Power Torque" box with a cheap, crappy mechanism made in Hong Kong.  In the case of the Illinois Central Gulf units, they were readily recognizable in that the text font of the road number was different from all previous production--way too large--and the ICG orange was replaced with a crappy reddish-orange color that bore little resemblance to any shade IC or ICG ever used.  Sometimes you see those bodies on older power trucks, but they did not come that way originally.  The Hong Kong pilots of some diesels were slightly different and slightly cheasier.  The "Power Torque" mechanism had a sickening whine to it that as I recall never went away.  It was one of the few engines I ever just outright threw in the trash.

Then came the infernal "Silver Streak"-style paint schemes as Tyco degenerated quickly...

John

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

I vividly remember fall of 1975 because that Christmas was my "best" toy Christmas ever.  I was 7, and had bugged my Dad for months for one of those ICG orange C430's (not knowing or caring they weren't prototypical at all).  I was very happy on Christmas day, thanks to Dad.

Mine was the Christmas of 1965 (I think that was the year)--when, coincidentally, I was 7--when Santa brought me the "Petticoat Junction" set. 

[Desertdweller]

I was not much involved in the hobby in the mid-70's.  Belonged to an HO club, but was getting ready to transition to N-scale.  So I missed the truly crappy Tyco stuff.

I'm not so sure Tyco medical equipment is truly unrelated to Tyco trains. Something to ponder the next time you are in the hospital.

I recall their stuff as being cheap but well-designed, and performed reasonably well.  I felt they were at least as good as their competitors in the same price range.  I was not well-enough informed at the time to realize the problem with their freight equipment's incompatibility with other makes was due to their truck-mounted couplers.  Their cars worked fine with others of the same brand.

All-wheel drive would have been a nice touch, but was not universal in the low-priced market.  The unitized power truck could not be used in hood units for the rear truck, but would have worked in F-units.  I thought their F-9 was pretty nice, and would not have been difficult to dual-power.

Maybe there were just too many manufacturers of low-end HO products back then for the market to support.
Tyco made some pretty good HO slot cars back then, as did Aurora.  Aurora was an early manufacturer of N-scale trains, marketed in conjunction with Revell.  Both were old-line manufacturers of stationery model kits.

Life-Like and AHM also offered entry-level HO sets.  AHM was an importer, not a manufacturer.  They imported trains from a variety of European manufacturers.  Much of their lower-priced stuff was made by Mechano in Yugoslavia.  Their better stuff was made in Italy by Rivarossi.

Lionel tried to compete in the mid-level HO market, by selling repackaged Athearn products.  I don't understand the thinking behind that.  Maybe they thought they could move their O-gauge tinplate customers into HO that way.

Atlas was bringing out some good mid-range HO locomotives at about that time.  They were also getting a foothold in N-scale by selling locos and cars made by Rivarossi.  The Rivarossi cars, especially the passenger cars, had very nice diework.  So did the locomotives, but, like the Rivarossi HO locomotives, suffered from weak motors and drive trains.  After Atlas began having locos made in their own facilities, their quality improved greatly in their N-scale line.

Looking back now, I think the 1970's was sort of a low point in model railroading.  Many manufacturers had a hard time understanding that, even though there was a great mechanical similarity between trains and slot cars, the market for the two were quite different.  Model race cars are a little too much, perhaps, like real race cars.  They are used to compete with, and can only maintain a competitive advantage for a few months at most.  By then, they are either worn out, or replaced by the next improved version.  This may sound like a good opportunity to manufacturers: your customers are apt to keep continually upgrading their equipment.
Until they realize they have accumulated several hundred dollar's worth of uncompetitive and therefore useless equipment.

Model trains, on the other hand, are good for years if they are good quality to begin with, and are properly maintained.  But, that doesn't mean that the customers are only going to buy once.  The surviving firms seem to have figured this out.

Les

[jward]

lionel's gp30 was a pancake motored job veru similar to bachmann at the time. the gp30 later became a part of bachmann's line, so i wonder if it was produced for lionel by bachmann.

the ahm, mehano locomotives featured a motor mounted vertically, geared directly to the wheels with no reduction. it is a wonder they ran as well as they did.

the atlas locomotives were smooth runners but had a couple of design flaws. the first was an extremely low gearbox cover on the trucks. these locomotives would hang up on kadee uncoupling magnets, making yard work difficult. the second flaw was major, and caused me to not buy their locomotives for about 20 years. the wheelsets featured metal treads on plastic hubs, and the treads would work their way partially loose resulting in a locomotive prone to derailments. atlas's early locomotives were later released by con-cor, who fixed the wheelset problem.

overall, the most durable and reliable locomotives in the 1970s were the athearns. those were bulletproof. you could tear them down and rebuild them, parts were readily available, and best of all there were aftermarket kits which would drop the gear ratio from 12:1 to 32:1. until i went dcc, i stuck with those regeared units.


now, with dcc, we can do with programming what once took a regear kit. and most manufacturers have expone4ntially improved the quality of their drives to the point where entry level locomotives such as walthers trainline, or bachmann's gp40 or ft, perform better than those athearns did. and they can be had for about the same price as the athearns listed for 25 years ago.

[Desertdweller]

jward,

I agree. The Athearn HO units were a good value for the price, and were indeed "bulletproof".  Most of my HO units back then were Athearn, I felt they were the best in their price range.

I don't recall having any Atlas HO locomotives, although I do have several N-scale units.  I had several of the early ones that I literally wore out: they were the Rivarossi ones.  I also have some late-model Atlas units that are good performers.

I was not aware of the wheel problem with early HO Atlas units you mentioned.  I think a careful application of superglue would have solved the problem, if it had existed back then.

Model Power imported N-scale locomotives back then that varied greatly in quality.  They sold a FA-unit that had a plastic frame and an open-frame motor that drove through the rear truck.  A much better built locomotive line they sold was made in West Germany as Trix.  They made a FM switcher that was so good that I literally wore three of them out.  It had a metal frame with an open-frame motor that drove through both trucks.

I made a trade with a local collector in 1969.  I traded him my Lionel 0-27 stuff for some HO stuff.  My engine was a 2-6-4 that would not run.  In return, I got an Athearn rubber band drive Geep and two Rivarossi E-8's.
I repainted everything.  The Geep into GN, the E's into CB&Q.  10 years later, I swapped them for N-scale.

Les

[CNE Runner]

Speaking of the Athearn Hi-F drive reminded me that I wanted to share my experience with the Little Hustler I 'won' on eBay recently. When the unit came I was amazed at its condition. This locomotive was never touched a kid's hands as it was in mint condition. I checked the drive bands and they were in place so what the heck...onto the layout it went. 'Turned up the power and its electrical motor went into warp 6...but the locomotive remained in place. A quick check showed that the seller (I assume) merely replaced the drive bands with any rubber band that sorta fit. I have since ordered a 'drive belt conversion kit' (8 bands that are not rubber bands and new motor shaft - driveshaft connectors) and am awaiting its delivery. Unbelievably Athearn still sells the original drive bands; but they are out of stock currently.

When I get things running, I'll share the results.

Ray

[2-8-8-4]

Oh--I can agree the Athearn locomotives, at least for awhile, were the best thing.

However, if you wanted an Alco Century, or a Baldwin Sharknose--well, Athearn just wasn't an option for those.

I also vividly remember unloading the first run of Stewart/Kato F Units at the distributor back in the day, opening the cases and seeing the brand new models, and how they somewhat revolutionized model railroading.  (By that time Atlas also had gotten their act together and did some very fine FP-7's which still sell new in box for good money--and they are capable of running a very long time).

John

[ebtnut]

Yeah, back in the day if did diesel modeling it was almost all Atheran/EMD - F-7, GP-7/9, SW-1200.  Mantua did the Sharks in cast metal for a while, but they didn't seem to be around for long.  Athearn also, of course, did the Alco PA's.  I think the first chop-nose diesel was the GP-20 by Tyco, but it was an indifferent runner.  Our old club took the Tyco body and mounted it on a Hobbytown of Boston mechanisim to make a reliable runner. 

Alco Models specialized in doing brass import diesels, but for the most part the mechanisms were junk.  A lot of guys would take the brass bodies and mate them to Atheran mechs just to get a reliable runner. 

Athearn took a flyer on doing the UP DD-40 in 1969, using the design plans released by EMD.  Unfortunately, EMD and UP decided late in the design process to use the wide cab instead of the standard Geep chopped nose, so the model didn't match the final prototypes.  It was pretty close to the DD-35, so it wasn't a total loss.

[CNE Runner]

What amazes me is the quality of the running gear on some of the early brass locomotives. I still have two brass locomotives: a 19th century mogul (Ken Kidder) and a Ma & Pa Consolidation (Akane). At present neither of these models run...probably due to years on the shelf. When they were running, they ran rather poorly. The detailing is exceptional - I guess the motor/gearing hadn't yet advanced to the point where they could be considered great runners.

Frankly, I bought these brass 'jewels' (+ a Gem American 4-4-0 which is long gone) because they were in the stratosphere to a young person in the early 1960s.

Ray

[Desertdweller]

There was a cheap Baldwin Shark on the market back then, but I don't remember who made it.  I think it was Tyco, but it might have been Life-Like.  I didn't have one, mainly because none of the railroads I was interested in owned one.  It had a plastic body, so it wasn't the Mantua metal bodied one.

Sometimes, you can look back and remember something you wish you had bought, but didn't.  Once I saw this very funky HO train at a hobby shop.  It was "new old stock" and priced in my price range.  I was basically broke, so you know it was pretty cheap.

As I recall, it was a plastic-bodied train: loco and cars only.  I think it was even unpainted.  The loco was an ALCO DL-109 and the cars may have been articulated.  I can't remember the brand for sure, but I'm thinking it was Varney (already defunct at the time).

I passed this one up as "too weird".  A day or two later, I changed my mind and went back to buy it.  It had been sold.

Interesting point about the brass HO locomotives.  I could never afford one, but assumed that their performance would be in line with their price and appearance.  A few years later, I discovered (through the experience of others) that many of them did not live up to their image.

I also remember reading in RMC back then a review of some Korean-made HO brass cabooses.  These things were not hand-made from soldered sheet brass, like the usual brass models.  Instead, these were cast out of brass- the whole caboose was a hollow brass casting!  They were factory-painted by being dipped in orange paint!  But- they were brass cabooses.  And cheap, too. 

Les