remote turnout problems

[danlee5]

I'm trying to add a remote turnout item #44562 to my DCC powered simple loop Christmas train set.

Problem #1; the power connection for the remote switch has spade lugs that go on a small post, and there are no such posts on a DCC controller!  Nothing on the package addresses this, and a call today to Bachmann was not returned.  The package shows the lugs being connected to an older style analog controller.  There is 16VAC on the flat lugs on the open side of the power/rerailer track piece (which comes from the DCC), and is there an adapter that would connect the post lugs from the switch to the flat lugs on the power/rerailer/ track piece?  Or do I need to also have an older style analog controller to power the remote switch? Or do I need to purchase a 16VAC transformer, and wire it to the lugs on the remote switch?  This issue must have come up to many hobbyists before, and yet I don't see the answer in the forums.

Problem #2; A car will derail when going either direction when traveling down the curved section of the cutout track piece.  I am able to stop this by putting a piece of tape in a little slot on the track, which keeps the switching section firmly in place.  It seems the little spring pressure that is in the mechanism, isn't enough to hold the switching section in place. 

Problem #3; I can temporarily connect the lugs mentioned in problem #1 to the 16VAC on the open lugs of the power/rerailer track section.  So the switch has power.  However when following the direction on the package to push the switch down and then move over, the remote cutout track piece switching section does nothing.  It does not move in either direction. 

I have an Associate Degree in Electronics Technology with Honors, and have been an aircraft instrument technician for over 20 years.  I am very familiar with DC/AC electronics, soldering, switches, etc.  In my experiences with Bachmann products there is regularly a piece of information or physical hardware missing, to prevent operation of their product.

It should be very simple to snap in this piece of track, hook up the wires, and go.  Any information you have why it isn't happening will be greatly appreciated.

Daniel Lee

[Jhanecker2]

Is your remote turnout  a DCC remote or a DC remote.  Bachmann DC remotes are powered by the accessory outputs of  standard power supplies.    DCC  controllers don't have Accessory (AC) outputs.  DCC  turnouts are typically controlled by the same type of chips that control the trains.  I would suggest you obtain one of the wiring  manuals published by Kalmbach that covers this topic.  Another place to look would be the website of NMRA  which  sets the standards for this Hooby.

[danlee5]

Thanks for the response.  It is a DC remote.  There is nothing on the package that says it won't work with a DCC controller, so as an average consumer and non-train expert, there was nothing to indicate there might be a mismatch.  Also on the website is is the same thing, no mention of what controller it does or does not work with:  http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=195.  That's a problem for the manufacturer. 

And yet the remote may be able to work with a DCC controller.  Does all it need is a 16 VAC source?  The DCC controller does provide one.  It supplies the track with 16 VAC, and presumably there is plenty of current behind it as this drives the locos.  To use this, would only require a simple adaptor to go from the post type lugs on the remote switch, to the blade type lugs on the power/rerailer track piece's second and open connector.

If this is all that is needed (and I'm not sure it is), the manufacturer could have included this simple adaptor.

[hawaiiho]

I'll try to provide as many answers as I can.

#1
 
Lugs or otherwise, the Bachmann DCC Controller has no accessory power out terminals. I use my old  Bachmann DC Controller which does have an accessory output to power my turnouts.
The red wire that came with the turnout supplies power from the accessory supply to the slide switch and the green wire is essentially  for control. It connects between the slide switch and the turnout.

As to the two pronged spade lugs on the red wire. I just cut them off, stripped off some insulation, twisted the stranded wire, and dropped some solder on the twisted strands. The two wires slip into the accessory lugs on the DC Controller very nicely.

The packaging of all my remote switches  came with very clear instructions printed on the back of the package and included everything that was necessary to connect and operate
the turnout. And the set that I purchased included a DVD with instructions.

#2

Did you have the turnout powered when you experienced  the derailing problem? It really needs to be powered to work properly.  I would guess that was your problem.

#3

The lugs  on both sides of the re-railer section are for convenience in connecting the power from the controller to the track and probably should not be used to power the

turnouts.

Did you have the green  wire  and the red  wire, both,  properly connected to the slide switch when you attempted to operate the turnout?

The red wire connects to the two pin connector on the slide switch and green wire connects to the three pin connector. The red wire goes to the accessory supply and the green

wire to(or from, depending on how you want to look at it)  the turnout.

I hope this didn't confuse you even more.

[hawaiiho]

I'll try to provide as many answers as I can.

#1
 
Lugs or otherwise, the Bachmann DCC Controller has no accessory power out terminals. I use my old  Bachmann DC Controller which does have an accessory output to power my turnouts.
The red wire that came with the turnout supplies power from the accessory supply to the slide switch and the green wire is essentially  for control. It connects between the slide switch and the turnout.

As to the two pronged spade lugs on the red wire. I just cut them off, stripped off some insulation, twisted the stranded wire, and dropped some solder on the twisted strands. The two wires slip into the accessory lugs on the DC Controller very nicely.

The packaging of all my remote switches  came with very clear instructions printed on the back of the package and included everything that was necessary to connect and operate
the turnout. And the set that I purchased included a DVD with instructions.

#2

Did you have the turnout powered when you experienced  the derailing problem? It really needs to be powered to work properly.  I would guess that was your problem.

#3

The lugs  on both sides of the re-railer section are for convenience in connecting the power from the controller to the track and probably should not be used to power the

turnouts.

Did you have the green  wire  and the red  wire, both,  properly connected to the slide switch when you attempted to operate the turnout?

The red wire connects to the two pin connector on the slide switch and green wire connects to the three pin connector. The red wire goes to the accessory supply and the green

wire to(or from, depending on how you want to look at it)  the turnout.

I hope this didn't confuse you even more.

One addition that I remembered after I posted this.
Bachmann, some time ago, announced they would offer a companion turnout/accessory power supply for their EZ Command System.  I haven't seen it in the Bachmann on-line catalogue as yet.

[Jhanecker2]

The DCC Controller  output is square wave    VAC .    It has less than  2 amperes of  power ,it  is to be used solely to operate the locomotives.  j2

[danlee5]

You guys are great. 

I borrowed a DC controller, hooked it to the remote switch's lugs, and it snaps the remote from one direction to the other.  I then connected the lugs to the 16 VAC that the DCC provides to the track, and as you noted it is a different kind of AC and it doesn't operate the remote.

So the answer to my original questions #1 and #3 will be to get a step-down transformer that supplies 16 VAC (I read these are available at a hardware store as a doorbell transformer), and solder it to the lugs that go to the remote's switch. 

The wall transformer that powers the DCC controller, was used to power the DC controller I used to verify the remote works.  So I  wasn't able to run the trains while the remote was powered, and I don't yet know if my question #2 the derailing problem will be solved when the remote is always powered.  I don't think it will be solved, as the power only seems to be really applied when switching the remote, and when static it is held in place by springs inside the remote.  I read on another post someone opened their remote and put in a stronger spring.  I may end up doing the same.

So far it appears Bachmann has made the mistakes of; 1. Not labeling the package or their webpage to clearly state this remote does not work with a DCC controller, 2. Not having a substitute device when using a DCC that would power the many older style remotes out there and forcing customers to fabricate a product (very few consumers could do this and it is actually dangerous as you are dealing with 115 VAC on the transformer primary), and 3. The remote probably has insufficient spring pressure again causing the customer to fabricate a fix.

I'd like to hear from a Bachmann rep to address these points.
   

[danlee5]

There was a 16 VAC transformer at the hardware store.  It is $10, and in addition to use it I would need a power cord, and some type of fuse or circuit breaker.  This would take way too much time to fabricate, and since this train set up is used at a Christmas party with a bunch of kids pushing and pulling on everything, can't take the risk they might access the transformer and shock themselves.

The wires from the 16 VAC transformer that power the DCC could be tapped into, or the DCC could be opened up and another plug installed in the case that has an output for the 16 VAC.  But again this takes too much time right now.

Why doesn't Bachmann make an output from the DCC controller with 16 VAC, or have an adaptor or some device to supply this?  There must be many hobbyists that have run into this unnecessary problem.

[danlee5]

I finally got a DC controller and 16 VAC transformer, so at the same time I can both switch the remote, and have a train pass over it.  The train still derails!  And the derails still stop, when a piece of tape is placed on the little lug that pops out when the rails move. 

What's happening is the mechanism that holds the rails in place when the remote is not being actively switched, is not strong enough, and the car going over the remote moves the rails and the car derails.

I opened the bottom of the remote, and found the spring inside is of too low tension.  I will have to stiffen the spring.  This should be easy to do, by gluing something rigid to or around perhaps 1/4 of the spring.  This will shorten the arm of the spring, and greatly increase the tension.

The average consumer would not have been able to get to this point; for lack of equipment, tools, and knowledge.  I'm an attorney, and after all this unnecessary hassle, will send a bill for my time to Bachmann, and a request they properly label the package of the switch and the website page it is located on to show it only works with a DC controller, and for them to modify all switches to have springs of the correct tension.  If they don't pay and modify their advertising and remote spring, it's time for my first small claims lawsuit.

[Desertdweller]

Danlee,

I just wanted to thank you for giving me an idea to solve a problem I have been having with my DC EZ-Track N-scale turnouts.  Most of them work OK, but I sometimes run into the problem you are having with the spring wire not holding the points (the moveable part of the track) in position after the switch has been activated.  As you noted, the switch machine, being a geared solenoid, exerts no force after the points have moved.  The vibration of a train passing over the switch (or even near it on an adjacent track) will cause the switch to gap, resulting in a derailment.

I have 28 of these switches on my model railroad.

I have gotten a lot of advice by reading this forum, as it seems to be an ongoing problem.  The conventional methods for dealing with this are: bending the switch point slightly (risky because of possibility of breakage);  grinding a small relief on the stationary rail (known as the stock rail) for the point to rest in (risky again because it introduces a weak spot; putting a dot of solder (or glue?) on the stock rail just before the point, to bump the wheel past the gap (this introduces a narrow spot in the switch, and causes rough operation over it); putting a slightly thicker spacer between the spring rod and the slot in the underside of the track; bending the spring rod slightly in the desired direction to increase tension (not a real good idea, as when tension is increased in one direction it is lessened in the other); and replacing the spring rod with a heavier one (a difficult task. A suitable spring rod would be difficult to obtain, and the work to replace it would involve opening bigger holes in both the plastic lever that moves it, and in the metal piece that the spring fits into).

A very useful bit of advice I got from this forum is to note the orientation of the small lug on the pinion gear that operates the spring rod.  The positions of this lug should be at one o'clock and seven o'clock for the two different routes.

I hadn't thought of stiffening the spring by bracing part of its length, effectively making the spring shorter and therefore stiffer.  It might prove an elegant solution to the problem.

Be aware that there is also a copper rocker contact that has to contact two metal plates for each direction, and if the rocker gets out of synch with everything else, power will be routed incorrectly to the powered frog (the metal X-shaped thing that the wheels pass through).  If this happens, a short circuit will occur.

These switches apparently had a lot of thought put into their design, but suffer in their execution.  I am hoping that if their problems are discussed like this in a public forum, it might encourage the manufacturer to correct them in production.

My suggestions:  use more powerful electromagnets in the solenoid; use a stiffer wire as a throw rod; mount the pinion gear on a longer shaft that can be mushroomed to keep it on the shaft; do the same with the lever that the pinion activates; devise a better way to maintain tension on the contact rocker (a stronger solenoid would allow this); and run the power connections between the switch mechanism and the stock rails closer to the frog (so continuity would not be lost if a factory-attached rail joiner had to be replaced, or if the stock rails were shortened to use the switch in a special application like a yard ladder.

If the entire switch were redesigned, consider powering it with a DC motor instead of a solenoid.  The sliding rack could be replaced with a worm.  Since motion can only be transmitted one way through a worm, it would automatically lock the points tight against the stock rail in either direction.  The power routing rocker would then have to be actuated by the worm gear.

As you can imagine, I have spent many hours myself on this.  I am a retired railroad locomotive engineer.

Les

[Jerrys HO]

Les-

I too have had these problems with the wire not being stiff. I posted it some time ago.
I just started repairing all of mine and it seems to work a lot better and no probllems as of yet.

Here's what I posted

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,18657.0.html

Jerry

[captain1313]

I stiffened several of my turnouts by sliding a small plastic tube (coffee stirrer) over the spring wire thereby not allowing as much flex and putting more tension on the points slide.  So far so good.

Kevin

[Desertdweller]

Jerry,

Thanks to the link to your post.  I'm glad to hear that worked for you, and am looking forward to your pictures.

I'm located in a rather remote rural area without a local source for piano wire.  I'm planning to stiffen my springs by shortening their flexible portion and see how that works.  If that doesn't work, I'll start a scavenger hunt for something suitable to use as spring wire.

Most of my track switches are located too far from the switch controllers to power with the wire supplied.  I've extended these wires using bulk wire and barrier strips from Radio Shack.  I've discovered that some of my problems with poor solenoid performance was caused by poor connections at the barrier strips.  To correct this, I am in the process of installing Radio Shack forked telephone connector lugs on all wire connections on my railroad.  I have about 600 of these connection points, and am two-thirds of the way through the project.

While this has helped a lot, I still think a more powerful solenoid would solve a lot of the problems.

Kevin,

Excellent idea!  I was just trying to think of what I could use.   I'm sure I have some of these around.
That would be something that could be added to the existing design in production for very little cost, too.

The next time I have to pull a switch out, that coffee stirrer is going in!

Also a good excuse to go out for coffee!

Les

[full maxx]

I stiffened several of my turnouts by sliding a small plastic tube (coffee stirrer) over the spring wire thereby not allowing as much flex and putting more tension on the points slide.  So far so good.

Kevin

can you post a pic of this

[danlee5]

As the attached picture shows; to stop cars from derailing, I had to install a tube over the original spring inside the Bachmann track piece.

With small wire cutters, a grinding wheel, and tiny file, the copper tube was notched at the spring mount side, to firmly fit into the spring mount.  It should have also been epoxied into the mount, but not having epoxy I used aquarium silicone.  With needle nose pliers the tube was pinched at the far end, to reduce movement of the spring inside it.  Also the far end was filled with solder, to eliminate any spring movement.

After that ridiculous amount of fabrication, now a train can go forward or backward over the switched section, and forward and backward over the strait section, without derailing.

Separate from the fact that most consumers could not do this fabrication/repair themselves, this is not the proper solution because there is no reliability testing.  Only a manufacturer has the resources to do that.  Perhaps the copper tube will come loose after a few cycles, and the remote then has to be disassembled and repaired?  Or the tube was too long and now the excess tension causes the solenoid actuator to fail after a short number of cycles?

The answer was a simple large increase in spring tension.

I like Bachmann products, but the managers/executives/board members running the company, don't know what they are doing.

Daniel Lee

PS the Bachmann website isn't allowing me to upload a picture of the inside of the repaired remote, so I'm trying to upload a tiny picture of it.  That failed too, so I'm trying to post with no picture at all.