19th Century motive power

[Royce Wilson]

Is there a sufficent market for some real 19th Century motive power? Remember the Colorado Midland 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 made by Hallmark, you can't touch any of those for under $400 if you can find one and what about updating the old time 4-4-0 to a Specturm standards instead of a tender driven growler.come on folks!

Royce

[richg]

Is there a sufficent market for some real 19th Century motive power? Remember the Colorado Midland 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 made by Hallmark, you can't touch any of those for under $400 if you can find one and what about updating the old time 4-4-0 to a Specturm standards instead of a tender driven growler.come on folks!

Royce

There are a few being made but cannot mention the brand here. I have some of them that are around $100 depending on where you buy them from.
Bachmann only goes back to about 1913 with a couple steamers.
With a motor replacement and fine tuning, the old Bachmann tender drive can be made to run very well. I have done it and made them DCC.

Rich

[MilwaukeeRoadfan261]

Is there a sufficent market for some real 19th Century motive power? Remember the Colorado Midland 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 made by Hallmark, you can't touch any of those for under $400 if you can find one and what about updating the old time 4-4-0 to a Specturm standards instead of a tender driven growler.come on folks!

Royce

There are a few being made but cannot mention the brand here. I have some of them that are around $100 depending on where you buy them from.
Bachmann only goes back to about 1913 with a couple steamers.
With a motor replacement and fine tuning, the old Bachmann tender drive can be made to run very well. I have done it and made them DCC.

Rich

I have a 4-6-0 from Bachmann in HO that is a 1907 Baldwin C&NW steamer.

[Doneldon]

Royce-

I don't think there's a market for 19th Century models beyond what already exists which means it's unlikely you will see more manufacturers moving into the area. You have to remember that railroads were still consolidating in the late 19th Century so there were many, many railroads which no longer exist, and those railroads often had unique rosters of unique equipment, making it hard to build and sell enough models at an affordable price while still turning a profit. Old time models are expensive to manufacture. Their smaller size complicates the engineering and their Victorian appearance makes tooling more expensive. Queen Victoria was dead but her stylistic legacy lingered on well into the Edwardian era.

1900 was a transitional year for railroads. The first transcontinental line had been finished barely 20 years earlier and the USRA was still nearly 20 years in the future. The railroads themselves and their motive power suppliers were just beginning to think about significantly larger locomotives and super steam, and those trends would quickly render earlier equipment obsolete, even if railroads continued to run many of them well into the 20^thth Century. Railroading was certainly out of its infancy by 1900, but it was propably no farther along than middle school. And lots of those early-ish railroads were in small farming communities which didn't have a middle school; lots of them only had a single room for the whole board of education!

You are not without options for appropriate motive power and other equipment. It is possible to get locos from Hallmark and other builders for under $400; I know because I've purchased several in the last few years. Some will need functional updating but their bones are good. Plus, tinkering is part of the attraction of model railroading for many of us. Keystone makes some outstanding lokies for your era. Wiseman Model Service has a pretty broad offering of rolling stock at affordable prices. And all of the larger manufacturers offer a thing or three so you should be able to piece together what you need.

I wouldn't, however, look for manufacturers to make major new investments in tooling and engineering. The late 19th Century market is just too specialized to make it financially prudent for companies to offer much. The one exception to that seems to be large scale which has grown, I think, largely (no pun intended) because of how quaint the old-time trains look chugging around back yards and basements. The size makes large equipment generally unfeasible for all but the largest outdoor layouts but it's perfect for stubby little trains with old time engines and rolling stock. Yes, there are modern large scale models to be found, but very few in the large end of large scale, meaning 1:24 and larger.
                                                       -- D

[ebtnut]

I really think that there would be a market for a decent 1860/70-vintage
4-4-0; essentially the locos Bachmann now offers but with upgraded drives.  Locos like the B&O's William Mason and the GN William Crooks would both be good prototypes.  The General, in its as-built design, would also be good, along with the Golden Spike locos. 

I saw an ad notice recently that indicates that Roundhouse will be re-issuing their RTR old-time 2-8-0, which fits into the 1890-1910 period quite nicely.  The Ma & Pa 4-4-0's in their original style with the slide valves and wood cab also fit, since they were built in 1901. 

[Royce Wilson]

Remember the  HO MA&PA  2-8-0, it was as close to a generic engine of the late 1880's as you could get.
I really think a updated version of the current Bachmann HO 4-4-0 would be a winner.

Royce

[jward]

it seems to me that if broadway limited could make and sell sucj items as winans camels and iron pot hoppers in o scale, there should be a market for similar items in HO. both were pretty unusual prototypes primarily associated with b&o in the 1800s.

roundhouse makes several late 1800s locomotives. those good running chassis could be the basis for some innovative kitbashing. resin car kits have also been made for a variety of period equipment as well. none of these are aimed at the beginning modeller, of course.

btw, i take issue with the comment that by 1900 the first trancon was but 20 years old. it was completed may 10, 1869.

[ebtnut]

There is a difference between making maybe 50 or a hundred Camels in O scale at several hundreds of dollars each, mostly hand-built, and tooling up to make a model that you need to sell maybe 10,000 items to turn a profit. 

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

Well, Bachmann seemed to think there was enough of a market to tool up and make a Spectrum 1901 Richmond eight-wheeler, complete with a wooden cab and slide valves, so why not a Spectrum 1870 Baldwin eight-wheeler?

My Spectrum Baldwin 4-4-0 came supplied with an additional set of domes in the earlier style, so they've already got the tooling for the earlier shape of sand and steam domes.

Now, if I could just figure out how to swap the domes on my engine without damaging anything. ...   

[CNE Runner]

This thread touches on one of my pet peeves: the lack of attention paid to 19th century railroading by manufacturers. My previous layout [loosely] depicted the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut Railroad as it was in the autumn of 1889. A decision was made to move my time period up to 1950 on the Monks' Island Railway due to the lack of appropriate rolling stock and motive power for late 19th century operations.

I have my share of Bachmann and AHM 4-4-0s (redecorated of course) as well as numerous Roundhouse/AHM/Pocher boxcars etc. Unfortunately most of the available 4-4-0s were dated for use in the late 19th century and Roundhouse rolling stock depicts early 20th century units. Taking some poetic (I mean hobby) license, I procurred two Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0s - even though they are too recent to fit the era (they both are absolute 'jewels'). I do have a couple of brass locomotives (a mogul and a Ma & Pa Consolidation) that are from the 19th century; but are poor runners and are relegated to the display shelf.

In summary, I would love to see some later 19th century products...especially since this is the 150th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War. Unfortunately the market for such items is quite small and probably not worth the expense of tooling.

Ray

[Royce Wilson]

It would be awesome if Bachmann took the old LaFayette 4-2-0 and made a 4-4-0 out of it and added a cab. It virtually would be a updated Civil war era engine like the B&O R.R. used

Royce

[NMWTRR]

Not sure if you are interested in doing some work on an older engine but searched on E Bay today for the Mantua 4 4 0 General and there are still several out there. I actually was very lucky and found a used one for $50 recently at my LHS and it was in excellent condition. It needs some tweaking to get it to run a little better and someday I will get to that.

These engines I believe were in use druing the Civil War era which might be a little before the timeframe you are modeling.

[CNE Runner]

I have owned, in the past, a Mantua 4-4-0 [General] and can attest to the fact that it is a poor runner. It also has 'tender drive' like its Bachmann, AHM, Rivarossi, Pocher, (et. al.) cousins. If it matters, 'tender drive' (motor in the tender connected with the drive gears via a driveshaft between engine and tender) detracts from an otherwise good looking locomotive. I had a brass 4-4-0 some time ago, and still possess a brass Mogul, that do not have this feature. If you absolutely must have a mid-19th century locomotive, then any of the aforementioned products will do with some tweaking. I guess we'll all have to wait for one of the manufacturers to produce a product as good as the Bachmann Spectrum Americans...without tender drive. Given the state of mechanical/electrical developement today, I find it hard to believe this cannot be accomplished.

Ray

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

Of course, one man's poor runner might be perfectly acceptable to someone else. My view of the late-model Mantua General, which has a can motor and usually sells for a lot of money on eBay    is that it runs very well--at least, mine does--but you still have to put up with the drive shaft from the tender to the locomotive. Speaking only for myself, I put up with the drive shaft as the price of the miniaturization. I'm more unhappy with the appearance of the working headlight. I've also gotten some older engines, which don't have can motors, to run very well with just a little judicious light lubrication and breaking in.

As to appearances, the General, the actual locomotive, as preserved today, is said to look nothing like her Civil War appearance. The engine was severely damaged when Sherman took Atlanta and was rebuilt after the war. Apparently, she lost a third dome in the rebuild. The Mantua model is based on the rebuilt engine, which is said to resemble a locomotive of 1870 far more than it does a locomotive of 1855.

[Royce Wilson]

I once took a dremel to my old Mantua General and back dated it(took alot of work!)it turned out nice looking after I used numerous brass castings, I also removed the Mantua tender and replaced it with a scratch built one and the end result was a unpowered engine that looked great!

I placed a Kato power unit(diesel) in a combine and the layout ran sweet. It can be done but its alot of work, I do believe that if Bachmann would update their UP/CP engines to a Spectrum class that they would be welcomed.

There are people that don't model that era because most of what is advailable is just not up to todays standards.

Royce