Damaged but Surviving Gorre & Daphetid Locomotives

[J3a-614]

It turns out the house itself survived the fire, and is now occupied by another family:

http://coolstuffstudios.net/johnallen.asp

J. Ward made a comment about what the GD would have looked like updated to the 1970s with diesel power; the prototype modeler in me says it wouldn't have survived that long, not with the back-breaking 4% grades and thin territory, looking in many ways like the narrow-gauge world of the D&RGW.  (I recall that Allen himself said the inspiration was actually the standard-gauge Colorado Midland, looking as it might have in the late 1940s).

A struggling first-generation diesel G&D might be plausible, though; the inspiration for this view might come from the New York, Ontario & Western, with an aging fleet of FTs, F3s, and end-cab switchers. 

Alternately, what about backdating the GD?  I am thinking in this case to a more prosperous line in the 1920s.  It would still have at least one Alco (NYC design) 4-6-2--actually, I imagine it as several, as this would be one series of engines the road bought new about 10 years earlier--but these machines would be black and burn coal.  No red streamliners in this time!  The road in this era would have more in the way of wooden cars, both freight and passenger, and a somewhat more logical looking loco roster (this is before the road ran into really hard times and before it went into the second-hand market for replacement engines). 

In reality, I was playing mind games with the idea of a recreation or partial recreation of the GD myself, and trying to figure out how to build a roster from common (non-brass) engines.  I figured I never could afford brass (and for that matter, I still can't). 

[jward]

my thought was that it probably would have looked something like the old western maryland out of elkins, wva. supposing the g&d had held on to steam as long as they could, they'd have dieselized in the 1960s just as the first wave of diesels were being retired.

most of the f units were used as trade ins to emd during this period. that would have been the ft's and f3s mostly. whatever got traded in to emd got scrapped under contract. so secondhand f units are not likely.

during this time ge was trying to geet a foothold in the market for larger locomotives. they were taking anything and everything in trade just to stay competitive, and ge was known to resell the traded in locomotives for use. this would bring up some intriguing possibilities...

with the steep grades the g&d would have wanted something known to lug. baldwins would have fit this category, and were some of the first locomotives the nig roads replaced. maybe a few former pennsy sharks would have made their way to the g&d? also known for their pulling power were alcos, particularly the rs3s. western maryland used many of their rs3s out of elkins where sharp curves and 3% grades were common. since there were many rs3s on the secondhand market during the 1960s and 1970s, it seems likely g&d would have picked up some. they'd have probably been interested in the 6 axle version of the rs3, the rsd5 as well. santa fe had a large fleet of those they were disposing of.

what you probably wouldn't have found on the g&d are emd products like gp7s and gp9s. most roads who had them kept theirs until the late 1970s at least. they were known to be simple and reliable, low maintainance units which would have cost alot more than alcos. the situation would be analogous to the used locomotive market to-day. you'll pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a gp38, but they can't give old ge's away. so somebody looking for a supply of motive power cheap would buy a bunch of say b23-7s, a few more than needed, and use the worst ones for parts.

i could see a few old locomotive hulks sitting around the roundhouse at great divide, missing hood doors and various parts as the shop forces scavanged them. it would make for some interesting modelling.

[ryeguyisme]

diseasels?!?! BLASPHEMY!!!!!

[jward]

it was once said that diesels were strong enough to pull a railroad out of bankruptcy. many a marginal road got saved by the lower costs of running and maintaining diesels.

[Doneldon]

J3a-

Diesels on the G&D? I think not.

John Allen's railroad (I had a chance to meet him and see his railroad many years ago when I lived in California as an early teen) had a funky, held together with chewing gum and rubber bands feel that just doesn't lend itself to something with as little personality as a diesel locomotive. (Sorry, diesel fans. I don't dispute their value to the railroads and the many super paint schemes they sport, but character they have not.) Even banged up, rusted out diesels would look out of place in a complex and visually rich environment like the old G&D. Where's the animation? Where's the life? And I don't mean prototype; I mean locos as living, breathing creatures.

Diesels on the G&D? Heresy! And I think John Allen would say the same. After all, he built the G&D long after the introduction of diesels so he did know about them. And he chose not to add them to his roster.
                                                                                            -- D

[jward]

diesels? no character? you've obviously never seen a running u25b. or heard an rs3 idling. diesels may not ooze steam from every joint, but they all have their own personalities.

[ryeguyisme]

you can't beat steam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyzzeMTXNaI diesels still won't cut the mustard for me. Remember a steam locomotive can pull any train it can start. The chassis alone is much more interesting if you don't have sound.

[J3a-614]

"Diesels on the G&D? I think not."--Donaldon

Heck, I'm not the one who brought it up!  Blame J. Ward for that! :-)

Donaldon did make an interesting comment, though, about how diesels wouldn't fit in with the G&D.  What makes that so interesting is that I've seen prototype photos of very new diesels in the postwar environment of steam--and they stand out as if from another world!  The two photos I'm thinking of were of a Pere Marquette E-7 at a station in Chicago, and a set of Baldwin Baby-Faces on the Central of New Jersey.  Both are photos of new or very new diesels, perhaps on their first runs; both happen to be in variations of blue and yellow, a deep blue and light "maize" yellow on the PM E-unit, and a bright blue and bright orange scheme on the CNJ Baldwins.  Against a mostly black, soot-stained backdrop of an ancient train shed on the PM, and a mostly black, soot-stained industrial landscape in New Jersey, the respective units just seem to be glowing, particularly the CNJ units, with a bright orange and what to my eyes looked like an electric blue!

Looking like they wouldn't fit?  Oh my, there would be a prototype for that!

J. Ward commented that he thought the G&D would have been buying second-hand diesels.  That prototype modeler in me says the G&D would have either died in steam, or would have been able to scrape up enough money for some new diesels, ironically from EMD!  My guess is they would have been financed by General Motors Acceptance Corporation, or GMAC.  This was GM's financial arm, and most people associate it with automobile finance, but GMAC also financed more than one railroad's diesels in the postwar era.  I even think they financed a GP9 order for the Pennsylvania in about 1954, which was notable in that it was the first time in living memory that a year had gone by without the Pennsy ordering something from Baldwin.  Apparently the financial package was more than even the mighty Pennsy could resist (it was also having money problems at the time), and this failure to win an order from a long and loyal customer apparently was a factor in Baldwin leaving the locomotive business. 

What would a "new management" at the G&D buy?  My guess is that this road, with its low speeds and grades and curves would be heavy on road switchers, very likely going for six-axle types, such as EMD SD7s, Alco RSD-5s, Baldwin AS-616s, possibly even FM Train Masters.  The road might roster an FP-7 or two to handle passenger service, but like the Virginian, it could well be that passenger service would die with steam. 

The diesels would bring a big operating change to the D&G (both model and "prototype"), and that would be a lot of train consolidation.  The dispatcher would have hardly any work to do as very long trains by G&D standards would work their way over the line, with only the local freights to stay out of the way.  It could even be that the through trains would become locals despite their length (which would cause griping from the customers about slowed operations). 

These long trains, made possible by MU equipment, would really cut down on the number of train movements, but would introduce their own problems, including dealing with passing tracks that would now be almost universally too short.  There would also be the interesting problem of too many cars coming in at once to the notoriously congested facilities at Port--and doing so on a regular basis.

Another aspect of this is that according to one of the web pages listed, John Allen's original operating concept was for the G&D to be operated point-to-point from Great Divide to Gorre  over most of the line (this was never accomplished because a final bridge was never completed.)  The segment from Gorre to Great Divide via Cross Junction was to have represented the Southern Pacific!  This would have made the G&D a "bridge route" between two segments of the SP.  I don't know how practical this would have been (I seem to recall the turntable at Gorre as being on the short side), and I wonder what Allen would have used for SP power (hint--nothing as big as a Cab-Forward), but this does suggest an alternate diesel scenario, and that would be for the D&G to become part of the Southern Pacific.  Again, I imagine passenger service to already be gone, and the freight service is now handled by SP F-units, Geeps, and SDs.

All this also echoes the sentiments of Rye Guy, Donaldon, and myself, and that is that diesel era railroading is just not as interesting as the steam era was.  We not only lost steam, we also lost passenger trains, stations, water towers and coaling towers, roundhouses, and of course steam locomotives.

Still, there could be a bit of fun in this.  How do you think the G&D would have painted "its" diesels?         

[jward]

i will take a stab at this.

g&d passenger locomotives were crimson red, freight ones were black. i see some combination of red and black as a reasonable assumption. i will go further and suggest a likely paint scheme would be that used by new haven on its later first generation diesels, black body with a red cab, and the g&d herald centered on the long hood in white.

had the g&d started to dieselize before about 1957, they may have had a better deal from one of the other builders than emd. emd's order books were filled from about 1947 until the mid 1950s, they weren't hurting for business. the other builders, particularly baldwin and fm were left with small orders from railroads who were unwilling to wait a year or two for emd to get to their order.

after 1957, most railroads were diesel powered, and the builders were hurting for business. had the g&d been in a position to order new locomotives at that time, i could see them ordering from emd and alco both. whether they'd have gone with 6 axle locomtives is another matter. at that time, 6 axle locomotives were considered "special duty" machines. the fleets of sd types that eventually ruled the mainlines were still in the future. given the winding and grade strewn route of the g&d, they'd have had to weigh the added tractive effort against the increased rail wear caused by the 6 axle trucks.

one thing i don't see on the g&d is high horsepower 4 axle locomotives, which were notoriously slippery. the g&d didn't need the extra horsepower as much as they needed the tractive effort. gp9s and gp18s would do fine for their purposes.


as for pennsy and baldwin......

like many roads, pennsy was finding out fast that baldwin locomotives were high maintainance. they'd bought heavily from baldwin in the 1940s, and those locomotives were showing their age by 1954. the centipedes and passenger sharks in particular were showing unsuitablilty for their intended long distance passenger train service. both classes were reassigned to specific areas where they could be monitored closely. the centipedes in particular wound up operating in helper service, shoving heavy trains over the mountain from altoona, pa where they were close to the juniata shop. even in this service they were a dismal failure, and were replaced by 6 axle alcos bought new for that service.

by 1954, the pennsy was undoubtedly reluctant to prop up a builder whose customers were deserting it in droves due to continuing reliability problems with its product.

[Woody Elmore]

I saw a video of a G&D  operating session at an NMRA convention years ago. It was quite a layout and operation.

His use of mirrors is something that we don't see a lot of today and he used Baker couplers - not realistic but they did their job very well.

Another pioneer was Frank Ellison. Ellison operated his O scale Delta Lines with schedules and timetables. I believe he was among the first to use a "fast clock." He also invented what he called "smiles"- these were not scale miles but train lengths. His book was once printed by Arco - a company that published how to do it books. I would love to see his book in print again.

Thanks all for the interesting John Allen comments.

[J3a-614]

"G&D passenger locomotives were crimson red, freight ones were black. I see some combination of red and black as a reasonable assumption. I will go further and suggest a likely paint scheme would be that used by New Haven on its later first generation diesels, black body with a red cab, and the G&D herald centered on the long hood in white."--J. Ward

A good choice, especially if following a G&D after 1957 or so (if it "lived" that long); Jonathan, check out the preserved ex-B&O office car behind the locomotive:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=51283&nseq=40

An alternative, particularly for the units when new, or before a simplified paint scheme from 1957, would also be from the New Haven, which had orange (red on G&D) hoods and green (black) cabs:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=27471&nseq=46

Substitute crimson for the orange, black for the green, cut back on the stripes and maybe go with silver trucks, and the G&D would have high style for the passenger train--but would G&D use a unit with A-1-A trucks?

http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/lip/lip7570.jpg

http://static.pwrs.ca/product_images/71469_1.gif

How about this in crimson and silver?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HWerJmDgrO0/Tbds2-CPH4I/AAAAAAAADP4/Lfvouq9VBZc/s1600/3966270621_327b0ff04a.jpg

Substituting red for the yellow in the Virginian's style could be credible, too:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=357410&nseq=12

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=357292&nseq=13

An interesting aspect:  none of these units are painted in EMD schemes.  EMD had a styling department, and many roads that ordered their first diesels from EMD would have the paint scheme designed by EMD as well.  One example of an EMD scheme for road switchers was this classic, which would also be "appropriate" for the G&D:

B&O, in blue and yellow:

http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/Bachmann-Pages/BachPics/GP7/GP7-B&O.JPG

KCS, in black:

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/2/9/9/3299.1187413200.jpg

Santa Fe used black and silver, with added safety stripes, and a herald in blue and silver:

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1456/gp7d.jpg

Now, what would be an EMD scheme for those FP-7s, if G&D had gone that route?

[ryeguyisme]

Another pioneer was Frank Ellison. Ellison operated his O scale Delta Lines with schedules and timetables.

I have a Delta Lines boxcar in HO and it's one of my favorite cars amongst my freelance collection

[jward]

hmmm. cab unit paint schemes....

how about bessemer & lake erie, with red replacing the orange, and white g&d logos replacing the butterflies....

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ble/ble708dsa.jpg

or maybe a version of frisco's old paint, with a red body and black striping,

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/slsf/slsf5042ads.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/slsf/slsf0019gea.jpg

and for more modern power, something like this:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=374131&nseq=5


as for a1a locomotives, given g&d's mountainous terrain, i doubt the added stability at speed of an a1a trucked locomotive would be much of an advantage where speeds would be low. and yet.....i could see them getting a bargain on some used pa's from one of the roads discontinuing passenger service.

[J3a-614]

Interesting choices, J., and in more ways than one; all of those units are in EMD-designed factory schemes or variations of them, and the B&LE unit is one of a batch sold to the B&O!

For another variation of the EMD scheme used by the Frisco; the principle design elements are how the blue curves over the headlight, and also a "butter knife" effect on the sides.  This "butter knife" pattern was also used on earlier Northern Pacific passenger F units, and was part of the original pattern of the Erie's E units.  The B&LE unit also wears a variation of this element.  And note how the upper color of the B&LE unit dips to the headlight in the same curves and proportions of the grey upper colors of a B&O engine, and also the Wabash unit below:

http://images.topix.com/gallery/up-Q2TSL8HQR8UAMA0T.jpg

Here are some models of units in the Nothern Pacific scheme, featuring the "butter knife," the nose paint pattern was what was called the "pine tree," and was used by a number of other roads as well, courtesy of the stylists at EMD:

http://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/033038/HO-CIL-2379-1-NP-Northern-Pacific-EMD-F3-A-B-A-Diesel-Set

Sometimes the "pine tree" was stretched out a bit, as on these NP FT units:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imlsdcc/4668973067/

An Erie unit, again illustrating the "butter knife" element:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/airport/3655705776/

Another EMD pattern was the "whiskers," which may have been inspired by the Pennsy;s GG-1 scheme.  This was used by Boston & Maine, Maine Central, Lehigh Valley, Denver & Rio Grande Western, and possibly others if my memory is right:

http://www.kinglyheirs.com/RailSiteLinksFiles/BostonMaineLocomotiveConwayScenicRailroad.jpg

http://www.zazzle.com/lehigh_valley_railroad_new_diesel_power_1950_mousepad-144454032059561336

http://web4.hobbylinc.com/gr/swh/swh5312.jpg

I'm a bit out of time for now (my wife has a "honey, do" list, and she's just a little impatient at the moment), but there were other "stock" design elements the EMD paint men used.  The result was that EMD paint schemes "looked right" in most cases, and interestingly, could also be adapted to other builders' units (i.e., Alco FA and PA units on the Lehigh Valley).  The paint schemes from the other builders also looked good, but tended to be different in overall style (think of the Alco-designed paint applied to NKP PAs), which is to be expected--the other builders had different designers, with different styles and tastes.

[J3a-614]

This is for Rye:

Has anyone on that G&D discussion group you mentioned talked about a diesel G&D? 

What did the talk go like?

How angry did it get at the 'blasphemy" of diesels on the G&D?

:-)