The newly announced 2-6-0, Spectrum or Standard Line?

[rogertra]

Roger,

As per my response on another forum to your same question/comment:

If you prejudge this model based on the name on the box, you will be selling yourself short.

My five 2-8-4's, converted to freelanced 2-8-2's are excellent locos. That loco has received high praise from many. The once Spectrum 44 tonner, 70 tonner and 2-8-0 all now come in "Standard Line" boxes. If you think somehow they have been cheapened, you are misinformed - the 2-8-0's are exactly the same, the 44 and 70 tonner are actually improved from their original Spectrum versions.

Here is how Bachmann is saving money with these items. Look at the size and complexity of the old 2-8-0 packaging, the box cost much more than the new Standard line box, and now three or four locos can be shipped in the same space compared to the Spectrum packing.

I have LONG said, over and over, on this and other forums, about ANY and EVERY brand, including your endless beef with Athearn over one product, that EACH individual product should be judged on its own merits, not prejudged because of who made it, who marketed it, what color box it comes in, where it is made, what it is made out of and so on.

EVERY company in this business, and in every business, has made a dud now and then. And some of the worst companies in the world have had a few winners.

But Bachmann has been on a clear path to overall quality improvement regardless of your "feelings" on the subject.

I knew a guy who years ago would not buy an American car, saying they were all junk. He bought a 1993 Mazda Navajo SUV, and raved about how great it was - then I opened the hood and proved to him it was just a rebadged Ford Explorer - Made in the USA - his opinion of American cars changed.

Sheldon

Very well put Sheldon.  But I'm not prejudging all the Standard range as I would still purchase the 2-8-0 as it's a proven excellent locomotive.  The older standard range?  Not comfortable with those, at all.  I have no need for the 44 and 70 tonner so can offer no opinion.

I did write that I will await Internet reviews regarding the 2-6-0 as I don't trust any of the reviews in the two major magazines that serve our hobby. They are way too far in bed with their advertisers.   I have a large stud of Spectrum steam and in fact am a champion of their Spectrum range of products.  I have over six 2-8-0s (Not sure of the actual number as some have never been unpacked), four 4-6-0s and several of both the heavy and light 4-8-2s and three 2-10-0s.  I've no articulated locomotives as they were, other than one CPR class, unknown in Canada.  I haven't purchased any of the 2-10-2s as I already have three President's Choice (Re-branded IHC) 2-10-2s and have no need for any more. Though I have heard good things about them.   I've also no 2-8-4 as they were relatively rare in Canada, though I am intrigued with your 2-8-2 convertions.  I have also purchased numerous Spectrum diesels. Can't give numbers as everything is packed away awaiting the construction of a new GER.

As for my  "feelings", as you put it, they only concern the older Bachmann products, which definitely deserved the name "Botchmann".   Having said that, it was the Spectrum 2-8-0 that made me change the era of the GER from 1972 to 1958.  I was so impressed with the engine that I bought several and changed my era, even though there was no promise that Bachmann would introduce more steam to the same quality. Thankfully, my faith in the 2-8-0 has been more than rewarded and the Spectrum range has proved to be one of the best in the hobby.

As for Athearn, I don't buy their diesels as their newer products are generally outside my era and there are better models available for the few that they do produce. I have no need for F units so don't buy those.  My beef with Athearn is with their 4-6-2 and 2-8-2, two products, not one as you wrote,  where they refused to honour their warranty. Not only with me but the thousands of other modellers who also purchased these locomotives.  As for prejudging Athearn?  I was bitten with two products and four locomotives for the tune of Can$1000.00.  I think that makes a good case for prejudging. 

Contrast that with Bachmann who have an excellent reputation regarding warranty work.

[rogertra]

I knew a guy who years ago would not buy an American car, saying they were all junk. He bought a 1993 Mazda Navajo SUV, and raved about how great it was - then I opened the hood and proved to him it was just a rebadged Ford Explorer - Made in the USA - his opinion of American cars changed.

Sheldon

I once knew a strong union guy who would only buy  "Union made in America", then I opened the hood of his Chevrolet Camaro and proved to him that it was made in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada.   

[Atlantic Central]

Roger, I understand and I too have large roster of Spectrum steam, and the several non Spectrum items I listed. I agree with you completely about much of the older Bachmann Standard line - but that does truely seem to be water uner the bridge.

As for Athearn, I understand your furstration. Athearn took its first "chance" with a Chinnese builder on those two locos - and they got burned as well. The builder made those locos, then promptly got out of the model train business, leaving Athearn with a mess. Yet my Athearn USRA light Mikado continues to run fine - they weren't all defective.

For me it is Atlas who never seems to make anything in my era or matching my theme - a shame as they make great product.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the new Bachmann Standline products. If the 2-6-0 is as nice as the 2-8-4, it will be a great asset to the hobby.

As for bad experiances, I have had bad luck with Broadway Limited, and with two of the locos I had problems with, they had the same problem as Athearn - no parts available. I ended up rebuilding them myself to make them run.

Take care,

Sheldon

[richg]

Has anyone noticed the Sounds of silence from the Bach Man. He knows nothing or is not allowed by The Powers that Be to say anything about the loco or the sounds packages.

Rich

[rogertra]

Sheldon.

Earlier you mentioned converting the 2-8-4s into 2-8-2s.  I'm interested in what and how you did it.  Any links to the project?

As for my Athearn steam, after tinkering and adding working front couplers as required, balancing them with additional strategically placed weight, removing the pressure springs from the trucks, something I do with every steam loco that has them as removing the springs improves pulling power and, of course, fixing the broken gears by the simple expediant of a carefully placed drop or two of AC glue and kitbashing the tenders, they have turned out to be usable and reliable locomotives.

The two 2-8-2s were in constant use on the GER as they handled the daily NYC and D&H/CV freights and the 4-6-2s rotated on the daily passenger train.  I had two identical passenger consists, passenger and baggage car, so each one was used every other operating session.  On the new GER, the 4-6-2s will be used on commuter trains so will be more heavily used, two trips per day each.

[Atlantic Central]

Roger, I don't have a web site but I have posted some info on this before, here and on the MR forum, but I'm happy to repeat it.

The loco is obviously a "what if", but a very possible what if. It is based on the DT&I 800 series Mikados built by LIMA the same time they were building the Berks for the NKP, PM and C&O. These DT&I locos look amazingly like NKP Berks, only a little smaller.

So my loco is "what if someone had ordered a modern Mike with 69" drivers?" And actually, those Berks could have built as Mikes for roads like the C&O who had very heavy rail/roadbed throught their systems - I have done the engineering math!

Here is a picture of one before the paint shop:



I simply replaced the trailing truck with a brass one from Precision Scale Co. and made a new drawbar. I removed the existing drawbar peg and the new drawbar is attached at the original trailing truck frame attachment. The new trailing truck is attached to the drawbar - like many models years ago.

This improves the "pull line" making the loco track and pull better.

While the loco is very nice, out of the box they are a bit light. But there is plenty of room for more weight. I added over five oz to them. Here are some photos of the added weight:







I also removed the circuit board caps and decoder, added about 2 oz to the tender, and added a few extra details. They run and look good and pull about 40 cars on level track.

I plan to experiment with BullFrogSnot for even better pulling power.

Sheldon

[the Bach-man]

Dear All,
The loco will be a Standard Line model of high quality with Soundtraxx sound.
It's all in the posted flyer.
Have fun!
the Bach-man

[Doneldon]

AC-

Have you put a multimeter on your reworked 2-8-4 cum 2-8-2? I'm
asking because I've considered adding weight to a Bachmann Berk but I'm
concerned that I might overload the motor with weight, especially with
Bullfrog Snot, too. I don't like to push my motors beyond 50% of their stall
current. That seems to leave plenty of power without overheating the electrics.

                                                                    -- D

[rogertra]

Thanks Sheldon.

I've contacted you privately.

[rogertra]

AC-

Have you put a multimeter on your reworked 2-8-4 cum 2-8-2? I'm
asking because I've considered adding weight to a Bachmann Berk but I'm
concerned that I might overload the motor with weight, especially with
Bullfrog Snot, too. I don't like to push my motors beyond 50% of their stall
current. That seems to leave plenty of power without overheating the electrics.

                                                                    -- D

The accepted test is if the loco can spin its drivers under full load, then it's not overloaded.  This is why I don't like traction tires, apart from the fact that they wear out and or cause the loco to wobble.   Locos with traction tires can stall and burn out their motor.

[Atlantic Central]

Doneldon,

No I have never worried with such things in 40 years of modeling. I have never burned out a motor either. Some of my locos have traction tires, some don't. I do like the idea of the BullFrogSnot as an easily replaceable/removeable traction tire - we will see - others have reproted great sucess with it.

I understand Rogers feeling on traction tires, but I also know that the physics do not scale down and in my modeling I pull long trains 30-50 cars and more. So I want good pulling power from all my locos - again, never had any problems. Most of my traction tire equiped locos have been re fitted with nylon traction tires from Calumet Trains. They do not wear out nearly as fast as rubber ones and the provide the extra traction but still allow the drivers to spin when stalled.

In addition to increasing loco traction with weight or traction tires, I outfit almost all my freight cars with very free rolling trucks of my own developed design. I use Kadee metal sprung trucks but replace the wheel sets with those from Intermountain. Much testing has shown this to be one of the most free rolling combinations possible and they track better than rigid trucks. Also by having metal trucks, which adds some weight down low, it is possible to keep cars lighter and still pull very long trains. And contrary to some conventional thinking, I put a drop of light oil in each journal when I install the new wheel sets - it is metal to metal.

Sheldon

[Doneldon]

Sheldon-

Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware of the nylon traction tires. They sound like a super solution if they add traction, help avoid motor burnout and last longer than rubber. I'll definitely have to try them.

I, too, like to putz with my trucks. I mostly have CVs which are very free rolling as well as equalized. I'm not convinced that the equalization makes a real difference with five ounce cars, but it sure doesn't hurt. I use a little graphite in the journals. It seems to plate the journal and axle tip without holding on to any dust or debris. If I don't have CVs I always use Intermountain wheel sets with whatever sideframes are on the car. Most of my non-CV trucks are Kadee.

                                                                                  -- D

[Atlantic Central]

Sheldon-

Thanks for the information. I wasn't aware of the nylon traction tires. They sound like a super solution if they add traction, help avoid motor burnout and last longer than rubber. I'll definitely have to try them.

I, too, like to putz with my trucks. I mostly have CVs which are very free rolling as well as equalized. I'm not convinced that the equalization makes a real difference with five ounce cars, but it sure doesn't hurt. I use a little graphite in the journals. It seems to plate the journal and axle tip without holding on to any dust or debris. If I don't have CVs I always use Intermountain wheel sets with whatever sideframes are on the car. Most of my non-CV trucks are Kadee.

                                                                                   -- D

Interesting - in my 40 years of playing with these things, I am convinced equalization makes a big difference in both free rolling and derailment free tracking.

With respect to oil vs graphite, the oil has never shown to pick up any dust or dirt, and it soaks into the cast metal providing the same sort of oilite bearing as graphite, but I will say my trains are in a clean invironment.

In my view, motor burnout is an operator issue and has nothing to do with traction tires. I suspect these motors could handle as much weight as could be applied in a normal scale model and it could pull as much as the available traction would provide. If an operator fails to shut down a stalled loco, that is not the fault of the loco or the traction tire - that is simple abuse of the machine.

I have never worn out burned out a model train motor. Based on my experiance that requires constant display type running.

I used CV trucks years ago and still have a few, but I am very happy with the performance of my Kadee/Intermountain combo.

Sheldon

[MilwaukeeRoadfan261]

As far as the quality of the 2-6-0, this is what the Bach-Man says.
"Dear All, The loco will be a Standard Line model of high quality with Soundtraxx sound. It's all in the posted flyer. Have fun!
the Bach-man"
So don't say the Spectrum Series engines are better quality because when you think about it, they (the Standard and Spectrum line engines) are all made in the same factory, under the same circumstances. The same quality parts that go in the Specrum Series engines go into the Standard line engines. The only real difference between the two lines is the amount of detail put on the engines at the factory. And as far as my fleet goes, I have 2 Spectrum series engines and 3 Standard line engines and my standard line engines will run just as well as, if not better than my Spectrum series engines.