Spectrum 4-6-0 DCC-W/Sound

[Sunshine Express]

I am hoping to  buy a Spectrum 4-6-0 DCC with sound when funds permit,but I would like to ask a question about it,s performance.
I bought a Roundhouse 2-6-0,and it is a fine model,but goes slow on DC operation.
My enquiry to Athearn told me that I needed more DC power above the normal 12 volt,as the loco,sound system uses a large amount of this power.
I notice some of my friends operating sound locos,diesel and steam on our club 12 volt DC layout,and they run the same as on their DCC at home I am told.
I have a Spectrum DCC 4-4-0 American,without sound,running the same on both systems.
Will the Spectrum  4-6-0 DCC With Sound run slowly when on DC Analogue,like the Roundhouse 2-6-0 ?

[Jim Banner]

Hmmm.  Sounds like the Athearn man had his volts and amps mixed up.  Let's do a quick review of which is which, based on the analogy of a water tower.

When you put water into a water tower, the higher the tower, the more water pressure it produced at ground level.  That pressure is similar to the voltage (a.k.a. electromotive force) in an electric circuit.  The higher the water pressure, the more water it can force through a tap at the bottom of the tower.  The higher the voltage, the more electricity it can force through a motor or other electric load.  Both the flow of water and the flow of electricity are referred to as "current."  With water, it is measured in gallons per minute.  With electricity, it is measured in electrons per second, or more conveniently, in amperes or "amps". **  If you increase the height of the tower, you can force more water out of the tap but only if the water supply to the tower can handle the extra flow.  If only a trickle runs into the tower, you cannot expect a sustained gusher at the tap, no matter how high the tower.  Similarly, if you increase the voltage of your power source, it can force more electric current through the motor or other load but only if the power supply can provide the extra current.

I am going to assume you are using a typical 8 watt (or 8 V.A.) power pack, the kind sold with train sets.  Your problem then is more likely a lack of amps than a lack of volts.  While the club's power pack can supply a gusher of electricity if you locomotive needs it, your power pack can only supply a trickle.  When some of that trickle is being used to run a sound system, there is not enough left to operate the motor at full speed.

The solution is indeed more power.  But power is volts times amps.  More volts means the power pack produces more power.  But it is like building the water tower higher - more pressure or voltage does not mean more current flow if the available current supply is still the same.  More amps at the same voltage also means more power, but in this case, the motor has a larger current available to it and can do its job properly.

Bottom line, if you are using an 8 watt power pack, you might want to think of upgrading to something about twice that power, say 16 watts (or 16 V.A.)  The voltage would be the same but the available current would be higher.

Jim

**one ampere is a flow of 6,240,000,000,000,000,000  electrons per second.

[Sunshine Express]

Thanks Jim, My Transformer is stamped as follows;
Back - Input 240 Volt AC - 2 Amp. 
Front - Output  -17 Volt AC - 4 Amp   & 17 Volt - 2 Amp DC
Total Output  50 VA.
Looks like I will have to invest in a new Transformer re your advice.
Owen

[Doneldon]

Jim-

Thanx for the 6.24 quintillion statistic. I don't think I've ever seen it before.

                                                                   -- D

[captain1313]

and here I thought Jim's "0" key stuck

[bobwrgt]

I own several steam engines with sound and DCC that also operate on DC. The MDC/Roundhouse engines use an MRC decoder and use a lot more voltage to move or run. This was the way they are designed. All the others i have run in a lower range of voltage. You should get a faster top end speed from the Bachmann.

Bob

[CNE Runner]

While at a train show this past Saturday, I observed a chap running a Roundhouse 4-6-0 on DC - and the sound function was in operation! Not only that but he was able to access the other sound functions by depressing a couple of buttons on a separate controller. All of this was done on DC...not DCC. [Needless to say this locomotive was equipped with a dual mode sound decoder.]

For various reasons (most of which do not make sense) I build my mini layouts using DC...not a big problem as they are easily converted to DCC. To be perfectly honest, I miss the sounds of my Atlas MP15DC or my beloved Bachmann 4-4-0s. How is it possible to have sound using only DC? Is this systemic to the Roundhouse product only? I should add that the sounds issued from the locomotive...not some add-on electronics box.

Inquiring minds want to know. My Bachmann Spectrum GE 45 Tonner is crying [silently] for sound.
Ray

[richg]

While at a train show this past Saturday, I observed a chap running a Roundhouse 4-6-0 on DC - and the sound function was in operation! Not only that but he was able to access the other sound functions by depressing a couple of buttons on a separate controller. All of this was done on DC...not DCC. [Needless to say this locomotive was equipped with a dual mode sound decoder.]

For various reasons (most of which do not make sense) I build my mini layouts using DC...not a big problem as they are easily converted to DCC. To be perfectly honest, I miss the sounds of my Atlas MP15DC or my beloved Bachmann 4-4-0s. How is it possible to have sound using only DC? Is this systemic to the Roundhouse product only? I should add that the sounds issued from the locomotive...not some add-on electronics box.

Inquiring minds want to know. My Bachmann Spectrum GE 45 Tonner is crying [silently] for sound.
Ray

A couple companies sell a device the connects between the DC power pack and the track connections. I will not mention them here as the Bach Man does not like that. He would rather you get a Bachmann DCC controller.
I have read a couple post in other forums about this but DCCrs kind of put it down. They do not see any good reason for not fully converting to DCC and DCC controller. This device is a real help for those who do not want to deal with the complexity of DCC and it can be quite complex if you do not understand the basics of DCC.
We sometimes forget, different strokes for different folks.

I have put a dual type sound decoder in a 44 ton and 70 ton and it cost about $130.00 each, not counting the time for install. SoundTraxx also has a decoder that would fit but requires quite a lot of frame modification. Plus the speaker is quite small. A few have put sound in a 45 ton.

A major frame rework would be needed for the 44 ton, 45 ton and 70 ton for factory equipped sound on board and Bachmann needs to know if they can make any kind of profit, an ugly word, on the loco. Bachmann is a business an cannot survive without making a profit.

Rich

[bobwrgt]

I have about 18 sound locomotives that are duel mode factroy installed to run on both DC and DCC. With Qsi (Atlas/Proto) decoders, MRC decoders , and Broadway Limited sound engines you can use and control the sound without going to DCC .
You can get a seperate unit to use the sound inside the locomotive without DCC for a fraction of the price.
I wish Bachmann would join in and offer some of their diesel engines in this group.

Bob

[richg]

CNE Runner

Since you asked, I sent a PM to you about a couple devices that allow you to control sound in a dual mode decoder while running a DC power pack.

Rich

[CNE Runner]

Many thanks to RichG for the 'off forum' reply to my questions. I checked out the first unit you suggested; and at $54 is really quite reasonable for something that is capable of doing so much. As we speak, my GE 45 Tonner does not have a sound decoder...but I am seriously considering having one installed.

I have built two other layouts that were designed for DCC and am fairly well acquainted with the system. DCC-equipped locomotives are more expensive if cost is a consideration (although my first DCC locomotive was a Bachmann GP35 that was inexpensive and is still running well). Most of the difficulty with DCC results in less than perfect track work (read that as electrical problems). DC is rather forgiving when confronted with a short break in electrical feed (or less than surgically clean track)...DCC is not. The quality of your wiring and track work is something to consider if DCC is in your future.

Got a question? Someone on the forum has the answer...super!

Ray

[richg]

Yeah, track work can be an issue which is why good soldering of feeders is necessary for good running DCC.
Those who use sectional track can have connection issues as well as with the track that comes in three foot sections. The track joiners are known to be an issue and are for joining track, not an electrical path without good soldering of the joiner. My first layout I used three foot hand laid track with soldered joiners and severe buckling because the Homasote was expanding in the summer. What a mess.
I have no idea on using the Bachmann track.
I guess from your response it is dirty track that you have issues with.

Rich

[Sunshine Express]

My Roundhouse 2-6-0  operates  with sound from the DCC  Controller,and when running on DC,the sound is actuated by the hand held Monitor  as supplied.
All my layout rail  joints are now saddled with fine wire  for better power supply.
The 2-6-0 ran a bit better on the Club,s DC layout yesterday,but asking all my mates then running Double Proto  Diesels,Garrats with sound  ,how they run on their normal home layouts,the answers were unanimous,"just the same ".
From everyone,s help  here,I think the Athearn/Roundhouse 2-6-0 weak DC operation,is caused by the excessive amount of power needed for the MRC Sound device. I was the only member running my brand and type of loco.
Case closed -- thanks to all --  and my next sound  steamer will be a Spectrum.
Owen

[CNE Runner]

Owen - I currently own two Bachmann Spectrum American 4-4-0s (one with sound, one without) as well as a Spectrum GE 45-tonner. All of these locomotive run like well made watches. I don't think you can go wrong with Bachmann Spectrum locomotives...the price is right and the quality is excellent.

Ray

[richg]

My Roundhouse 2-6-0  operates with sound from the DCC  Controller, and when running on DC, the sound is actuated by the hand held Monitor as supplied.
All my layout rail  joints are now saddled with fine wire  for better power supply.
The 2-6-0 ran a bit better on the Club's DC layout yesterday, but asking all my mates then running Double Proto  Diesels, Garrats with sound , how they run on their normal home layouts,the answers were unanimous, "just the same ".
From everyone,s help  here, I think the Athearn/Roundhouse 2-6-0 weak DC operation,is caused by the excessive amount of power needed for the MRC Sound device. I was the only member running my brand and type of loco.
Case closed -- thanks to all --  and my next sound  steamer will be a Spectrum.
Owen

I have the Roundhouse with the MRC and I got rid of that decoder fast. I put in a Micro Tsunami.

Athearn/Roundhouse switched over to the Tsunami some time ago. No, they do not sell the one that is in the Roundhouse locos now. You have to install the Micro yourself.

I have not been able to find out if the Tsunami in the Roundhouse is the same as the one in the Spectrum. I will have to go look for the Athearn/Roundhouse Tsunami documentation and compare the specs. From what I have seen so far, Athearn cuts out some of the sounds/CV's like Bachmann does.
I have one Roundhouse 4-4-0, two 2-6-0's and one 2-8-0. All identical size locos.

The Spectrum 4-6-0 I have is with the factory on board Tsunami. Great loco.

As for MRC, one DCC supplier I use for all my DCC stuff, sells two MRC items. Two speakers. That it.

Rich