Pre War 2 position reverse units

[jpstrainyard]

JP of Acton MA, USA writes,

I am looking for any info on how to wire (or properly wire) a pre war 2 position reverse unit. Any help would be greatly appreciated. (ie wiring diagrams)

I have a pre war no. 252 lionel loco. right now, its 2 position reverse unit is wired so that one position is forward, and the other position acts like an "off" position, cutting power to the motor with track power still on. It should be that one position is forward and the other position is reverse

[Joe Satnik]

Is it a 252E, with an E stamped on the door?  Can you show a photo of the reverse unit?

[jpstrainyard]

JP of Acton MA, USA writes,

The loco is a small 4 wheel center cab electric profile loco. its 2 position direction control lever sticks through the top of the loco at one end. The loco number is 252, but without the "E" designation. I'll try to post a pic, but since I have never posted any pics on this site before, I don't know how to.

Sincerely: JP

[Joe Satnik]

One of the ways is to upload to a photo hosting website, like photobucket, then put a link to it in the post. 

[jpstrainyard]

JP of Acton MA, USA writes,

I have pics, on my HD, of my prewar loco in question, but the file size is too big to upload to this site.
I actually never use photo sharing sites like photobucket or flickr, etc. I am under the impression that I need to create an account to use those sites.

Sincerely: JP

[Joe Satnik]

Yes, you would have to set up an account, but it's free. 

Found this on-line at: http://www.buylioneltrains.net/trains/250-252-248-series/

"The 250 available in dark green with no reverse and the 252 with hand reverse, introduced in 1926 had similar bodies. The 252 was available in dark, olive green, orange, peacock, mojave and maroon and in 1933 became the 252 E when an automatic reversing unit was installed.

The 252 & 252E were packaged with 529, 603, and 607 cars along with a Macy special colored maroon with cream bead stripe The 252 are the most common of the prewar series with the 250 very rare."

So, sounds like you have a hand reverser.  Correct?

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[jpstrainyard]

JP of Acton MA, USA writes

Hi Mr. Satnik,

thank you for the link. my loco has a hand (manual) reverse unit. any info on how they are properly wired would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely: JP

[Joe Satnik]

The parts term lionel uses for your reverse lever might be "controller".

Does "Con34" look familiar?  Con4 handle?

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/b123/001314.pdf

[Joe Satnik]

[Joe Satnik]

JP,

Electricity path:

Center rail, roller pick up, direction controller and lamp(s).

contact to armature brush 1,  through armature and out armature brush 2.

contact to controller, contact to motor field winding, through winding to frame ground,

wheels, outside rails.  

Try this:

If not already done, remove or disconnect any bulb(s).

With chassis on bench and unpowered,

Connect one lead of your Ohm-meter to the frame, then start probing with the other lead to measure resistances along the path described above.    

Take readings in the "good" direction lever position.  Start probing in the "bad" direction and compare to the good.  Remember that brush 1 and brush 2 readings should swap.

Let us know.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik  

Edit: Added "brush" in 4 places for clarity.
 

[Len]

According to my "Greenberg's Lionel Prewar Trains Repair and Operating Manual", the reverse unit shown in your picture can be wired several ways. Looking at the reverse unit from screw side, with the handle vertical,  the most common configuration is:

(A) Top Right Screw - P/U Rollers
(B) Bottom Right Screw - Motor Brush
(C) Bottom Left Screw - Field Winding
(D) Top Left Screw - Motor Brush

The brush wires most always be opposite each other, e.g., either A/C or B/D. If the motor runs opposite the way you want it too for a particular handle direction just swap the brush connections.

Len

[jpstrainyard]

JP of Acton MA, USA writes

Mr. Satnik & Len,

Thank you so much for the info about the wiring configuration for the 2 pos. reverse unit.

Mr. Satnik: just wondering what you meant by "contact to armature 1,  through armature and out armature 2"
Also thank you for the pic of the loco with the shell off my loco looks exactly like that (minus the lights) inside.

Len: I will inspect the wiring on my loco and make the necessary changes, then test the loco to see if it runs as it should.

Mr. Satnik: I currently don't have a greenberg guide to prewar trains. Would you know where I could get one ?
Also, is it possible to wire the lights (loco is equipped with 2 lights, one on each end) to the reverse unit so that the lights are directional ?

Sincerely: JP

[Len]

JP,

Unfortunately "Greenberg's Lionel Prewar Trains Repair and Operating Manual" is out of print, and has become something of a collectors item in it's own right. Used copies in good condition sell in the $290 - $325 range.

Many of these prewar units used a green bulb on one end and a red one on the other to indicate the forward and reverse ends. Both were normally lit all the time, and it would probably be considered a major modification to add directional lighting.

Len

[Joe Satnik]

Dear JP,

It would have been better had I added the word "brush" in strategic locations in my instructions.  I will go back and edit for clarity. 

Our statewide public inter-library loan system has a few copies of the Greenberg book.  Check with your librarian. 

If the book is reference only, ask them to photcopy the pertinent pages.   

I thought of connecting one bulb wire to one brush wire, and the other bulb wire to the other brush wire,

but the dimmed bulb would rob current from the field coil, and the bulbs would put extra current on the controller contacts.   

(The contacts are probably tough enough, though.)  Would have to think of some other way.

If your wiring looks correct and your loco still doesn't work correctly, clean the electrical contacts in your controller.

Hope this helps,

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik of snow and slush covered Upper Midwest, USA

Requiescat In Pace WEAU-TV Tower, Fairchild, WI

[Joe Satnik]

Dear JP,

A few thoughts on directional lighting:

1.) You could fashion a SPDT (single pole, double throw) switch by extending the controller's hot (or roller pick up) post taller or radially outward. 

You would then mount 2 feelers around (one on each side of) the extended part of the hot post.   

Move the controller towards forward, the hot post touches the feeler connected to the front bulb.

Move the controller towards reverse, the hot post touches the feeler connected to the rear bulb.

You would have to be careful that the feelers don't touch anything but the extended portion of the hot post.

Another possible solution:

2.) You could mount a SPDT micro-switch next to the controller. 

Fashion an arm on the moving part of the controller that would press down on the micro-switch when the controller was rotated to reverse. 

Center rail roller (hot) to micro-switch C (common), front bulb to NC (normally closed), rear bulb to NO (normally open). 

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik