Layout A/C Bi-directional Winch Help

[john.001]

Layout:  4' x 8'    150-200 lbs

Question:  Anyone who is using a layout lifting system (winch, etc.) I would appreciate advice on a type/brand/store/etc. 

I hope to pay $50-125 for a winch that can raise AND lower my layout in the garage.

[richg]

You forgot about your friend, Google.

http://www.google.com/search?q=winch+for+model+railroad+layout&hl=en

Like was said, check on insurance.

Rich

[Joe Satnik]

Dear John,

Thought you might find these articles interesting,

and I highly recommend the first:

The Midland Valley RR, hanging layout in 3 car garage
by Hediger, Jim 
from Model Railroader June 1977  p. 52
garage  hanging  layout  trackplan

Perhaps it was influenced by John Armstrong:

Trackplan in suspension - 10x20 hanging in garage
from Model Railroader May 1957  p. 46
Armstrong  hanging  trackplan 

Suspended Layouts
by Rick Mugele 
from NMRA Bulletin July 1973  p. 10
hanging  layout  trackplan   

Ups & Downs - The Frances Lines
by Louis Queyrel 
from NMRA Bulletin July 1973  p. 13
hanging  layout

John Wittmus Great Byron & Western, hangs from ceiling
by Sperandeo, Andy 
from Model Railroader December 1983  p. 84
hanging  layout 

"flying table" Volar Mesa Lines
by Stark, Jack 
from Railroad Model Craftsman July 1960  p. 25
hanging  layout

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik   

[glennk28]

I
I   have seen several  such suspended layouts--I think that the best system is where the layout is counterbalanced.  Lou Queyrel's was one such.

[Doneldon]

John-

An important consideration is keeping the layout more-or-less level while raising or lowering it. This requires either moving it one corner or end at a time in very small increments, or moving all support cables simultaneously. The latter is the better solution, although it is a little more work to set up.

Use connected cables or ropes on each end of your layout and have each end run to a single cable or rope. Then it is easy to use a pulley on each end and pull both ends up together. You can work out a fancy plan to work both ends at the same time but this inelegant solution works well and requires little hardware. Consider setting the layout on a strong base, like a table frame or saw horses while you are running trains, both so things are more stable and so you can move the supporting cables out of view. (Let's face it: the real world isn't hanging from ropes or chains.)

One problem with the solution I just suggested is that you can't get tight to the ceiling with an inverted V cable at each end. If your overhead clearance is limited so you need to raise your layout all of the way to near contact with the ceiling, you'll need a cable and pulley for each corner. Each of these can be run to another pulley so that you can pull all four corners at the same time but it's a little bit complicated and you'll need a bunch of pulleys.
                                                                                                          -- D

[Jim Banner]

I used a $65.00 boat winch to run shingles up onto my garage roof last summer.  Ran it off an old 12 volt car battery and a charger.  Another thought is to use a garage door opener with a chain drive to a 5" steel pipe.  The pipe would serve as a winch drum with 4 lift cables and two or more counter weight cables.  There must be lots of used garage door openers around - they keep arriving on my door step.

I liked one fellow's idea of using safety chains to make sure his layout stayed up.  And I noticed in his video that he carefully avoided walking under his layout until those safety chains were firmly in place.

I cannot see any problem with hanging a couple of hundred extra pounds from the ceiling.  Uncle Harry creates more load when he swings from the chandelier.  The roof of my two car garage is designed to support itself plus 14 tons of snow.  In the south I suspect the anticipated snow load is not quite so high, but if there is any doubt, be sure to use at least 4 lift cables to spread the load around.

Jim

[CNE Runner]

I think Jim made a good point about the support infrastructure of your garage. Here in the South, many homes are constructed with trusses on 24" centers. In our case, the ceiling joist (truss bottom) runs approximately 20.5' as a clear span...hanging someting of any consequence on that great a span is asking a lot of a 2'x 4' piece of Douglas fir. If you are lucky enough to own a home with a non-trussed roof structure, you probably have at least 2"x 6" joists. In any case, before I went through all the expense (and trouble) of designing/constructing a cable lift; I would consult either a structural engineer or architect.

Someone also made a good point of checking with your insurance company. My original layout was a fold-down affair in our garage. I checked with our insurance agent - who came out to the house to look at the plans (and the wall structure). He gave his blessing and said he recently had a fellow who attached a cable lift system to move (store?) his 4-wheeler. The ceiling became deformed and the insurance company would not pay for repairs! While it is always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission...not in the case of insurance.

Ray

[Doneldon]

John-

Let me jump in here with a further comment on Jim's and CNE's warnings about the effects of weight on your garage ceiling structure. (Yes, they both get an apostrophe in this usage.) They are on to something which didn't cross my mind earlier. The weight could be a problem, especially if it is counterbalanced. With the counterweight you could be looking at 350-400 pounds all together. That's not an issue in the north (Minnesota) where our roofs are built to carry a good deal of weight (as Jim pointed out). But it might be a problem where building codes aren't so robust in this regard.

I suggest two approaches to the weight problem if you have light construction in your garage: First, spread the load out among as many joists or trusses as you can. The easiest way to do this is hanging the layout in a skewed configuration so every corner is supported by a different length of ceiling frame. Or, either add bracing between the ceiling members so the load is spread out more, hang the layout from new lumber placed perpendicularly to the existing ceiling pieces, or sister the existing materials with appropriate two-by lumber (add 2x6s or 2x8s or whatever next to the existing horizontal lumber). Then hang your layout from the sisters or cross pieces. This doesn't need to be hard. Second, hang the layout as near to the ends of the ceiling framework as practicable. Weight at the ends of the joists or trusses will deflect them much less than weight in the middle of the span. If you can't do this for some reason, either sister the ceiling joists or hang the layout from new perpendiculars, as described above. This will effectively spread the weight over several existing pieces, reducing the load on any given ceiling piece.

                                                                                                          -- D

[glennk28]

As I remember visiting Lou Queyrel's  layout, it was centered in the 2-car garage with all the ropes leading to the counterweights at the sides--these were sort of open boxes to which additional weights (bricks?) could be added as the layout developed.   I think that Lou was also a holdout on using Mantua couplers.   

He could raise or lower the layout with one hand--made for non-stooping wiring.   

gj