G Scale start-up in the woods!

[pirate]

Ok, we have 10 acres in the middle of Wisconsin. I have very old American Flyer HO Set (circa 1948) and a newer On30 Bachmann Silver Series "Colorado & Southern" and two really old 4 x 8 layouts with 35 year old plaster mountains no less --Hoo Hah! No G Scale --yet. Want to start planning a logging camp/train route with tressles, etc and run it through the woods. (1) Do I want standard G scale or narrow guage? (2) What's a good starter --Heisler? (3) Do I want real steam so I don't have to worry about extending power into the woods? (I have Garden Railways subscription and am reviewing articles but need some input from you who have done this please). I have new smaller electric chain saw which is great at cutting up smaller logs for the firplace AND for the train! What do you burn in a "steamer"? Could I use little, cut-up pieces of wood. Wow, that would be cool. Let me know what you experts think please.
JimE, The "Pirate" (I also sail on Lake Michigan, hence the nick-name).

[Jim Banner]

Live steam is great if you like fussing around with a locomotive to make it run for a little while.  But, in general, live steamers are not great for pulling cars, let alone switching them in and out of industries.  For that, nothing beats electric power.

A typical lumber railroad might consist of a narrow gauge line from a logging camp deep in the woods to a saw mill somewhat more centrally located.  It might also have a train (narrow or standard gauge) running from the saw mill to where the lumber will be used, or this part of the operation might be implied rather than modelled.  In any event, switching is often involved at both the lumber camp and the saw mill.  Then there is driving the train between the two.  Depending on the space available, the distance from lumber camp to saw mill might be only a few feet or it could be many hundreds of feet.  How easy or how difficult it is to drive the train(s) depends on the twists, turn and gradients in the track.  A Heisler or other geared locomotive would be typical for this type of railroading.

If extending electrical power into the woods is a problem, then have the train do it for you.  Have it carry its own power in the form of batteries, either in the locomotive itself or in a follow car.  Rechargeable batteries can be recharged with a solar panel if no other source is available.  Radio control, in various forms, can be used to control the battery power, allowing you to change speed and direction, as well as operate a sound system if you like. 

[kevin2083]

Yeah-what he said. One thing that I might add is that Bachmann track is not good for outdoor use unless you really like getting rid of rust.

[Tom Lapointe]

Live steam is great if you like fussing around with a locomotive to make it run for a little while.  But, in general, live steamers are not great for pulling cars, let alone switching them in and out of industries.

I'd like to elaborate a bit on Jim's comments, since I run both live-steam & electric; I currently have 5 Shays on my roster - 4 Bachmann (3 of the 2-truck Shays, 1 of the 3-truck).  The Accucraft Shay is the live steamer.

I'll agree, for minimum fuss, electric is the way to go; it's also far less expensive!

When I'm limited on "train time" , or just want to sit back & "railfan" ("watch 'em roll"), I usually run the Bachmann locos, some of which are equipped with sound.

But in terms of pulling power, the Accucraft Shay pulls just as well as the Bachmann 2-truckers; both typically handle a 6-car train up my 3% grade.

Where the live steamers excel is in the show they put on!   (Which makes the "start-up fuss" - & in the case of this engine, that really isn't much! - Worthwhile!).

Here's a sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijXcQr9MFlc

I've also modified the Accucraft for RC control, & installed Kadee couplers on it, so I can do switching with it!

...As far as the "fuss" goes, remember, this is operating a small, but REAL steam locomotive; here's what's involved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfsJGphS0bY

- And as long as the live-steamer has insulated drive wheels (this one does,  some others, such as my "Ruby" #11, doesn't), it can "play nice" with what the live-steam crowd refers to as the "sparkies"!  (The Bachmann locos, running under DCC control in my case):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpbBhsy0ZCQ

So this way you have an idea of "both sides of the coin."   In your case, if you're planning a really HUGE railroad, you might also want to give battery / RC power consideration as an option for running Bachmann locos.

                                                                                                     Tom

[paintjockey]

Personally I would go with the narrow guage. Bachmann and a few others make readily available equipment.

As far as power goes, I'll tell ya a quick story:
My first experience with Large scale RRing was with a Bachmann climax that I had bought and modified to DCC. I was excited to take it to a friend of a friends house who had an outdoor layout. 6 people were present, the layout owner and 4 others me included had "sparky" locos that were equipped with DCC. We put all our locos on the track and.... nothin'. My climax shuddered so bad around the track it was sad. So, we got out the cleaning equipment and set to work. In the process one person broke a power feed that had to be replaired and another person (me) knocked the track out of the ballast which then had to be repaired. While I was getting a crash course in track ballasting I noticed the 6th guy (did ya forget about him?) was happily running his connie and doing a lil switching in the yard. I wanted to know why he could be running when I was cleaning track for an hour.  I got to talking to him and he explained batteries and airwire to me. He let me run his connie and I was a battery convert right then and there. Now when we go to run there are 4 people cleaning track and 2 guys running trains right from the get go. Personally, I will never clean track again.
As far as Live steam goes, I would love to have one. They take time to "steam up" so you can't just get them out and run them like the others and they are more maintenance heavy, but like was said they are real steam engines. Just real small. I believe most burn alcohol or butane. a select fuel burn anthracite coal.
hope this helps

[Jim Banner]

- And as long as the live-steamer has insulated drive wheels ... it can "play nice"  with what the live-steam crowd refers to as the "sparkies"!  (The Bachmann locos, running under DCC control in my case):
Tom

Tom, have you ever thought of using DCC to control live steam?  Or ever heard of anyone trying it?  It strikes me that a DCC link would be cheaper than a radio link if you already have the DCC installed.  On the other hand, if you can afford an Accucraft Shay, maybe the price of the link doesn't much matter.

Just a thought.

[Tom Lapointe]

Tom, have you ever thought of using DCC to control live steam?  Or ever heard of anyone trying it?  It strikes me that a DCC link would be cheaper than a radio link if you already have the DCC installed.  On the other hand, if you can afford an Accucraft Shay, maybe the price of the link doesn't much matter.

DCC isn't really practical for live steam, Jim,  since I'd still need to drive a servo to control the locomotive (also, there are no wheel power pickups, I'd have to fabricate some); to convert the Accucraft to RC control, I removed the manual reverse lever, fabricated a small aluminum bracket, & used it to mount a mini-servo (salvaged from an old RC glider - I also fly RC aircraft) in it's place.    Tha Accucraft Shays use a piston reverse valve (sort of the live steam equivalent of a DPDT switch); when starting the conversion, I found how far I moved the reverse valve also let it double as a very effective throttle! This meant I only needed 1 servo (vs. the usual 2 - 1 for throttle, 1 for reverse) to control the loco; the consideration here was not so much cost (& despite buying a loco this expensive - my first "plunge" into a $1000+ loco of any sort!  - I wouldn't call myself rich! ) as the very limited space in the cab  - which is filled with the burner assembly, butane tank, & displacement lubricator.  (Which is why my "engine crew" stands just outside on the running boards "enjoying the scenery"! ).  I use the manual throttle only as a "master steam on/off valve"; I close it to drain the lubricator at the end of a run, open the blowdown valve at the bottom of the lubricator, then re-open the throttle to relieve any remaining steam pressure & blow out the accumulated water & any left-over steam oil.  (The lubricator mixes steam oil in the supply line to the cylinders for piston / cylinder lubrication; all it is a a brass cylinder with the steam line passing through, with a tiny hole in the steam line.  Live steam from the throttle enters, condenses to water, sinks to the bottom, & forces the steam oil BACK OUT the same hole into the cylinders).

At the time I did the conversion, I picked up an RC car transmitter (75 MHz. FM) for a controller; the "steering wheel" on the transmitter controls the reverse lever, & operates very much the same as LGB's "center-off" throttle power packs.  The wheel is spring-loaded to center; in that position, even with steam up & the manual throttle open, the Shay is in neutral & doesn't move.  Turn the wheel to the "right", the Shay runs forward, turn it to the "left", & it runs in reverse.   How far the wheel is turned either way determines speed.  This is so simple & intuitive to run that I frequently let small children run the engine at train shows.   (And this loco is not fast, even at full throttle!  Due to it being hot, I don't let the kids touch the engine; I just tell them they can play "engineer" , but I have to play "fireman"   (monitor the boiler pressure & add water via a hand pump in the tender during a run - there's a sight glass for water level on the backhead just like a full-scale loco).  If I were to do this conversion today, I'd use one of the "SPECTRUM" DX6 "spread-spectrum" radio systems; no frequency "conflicts" to worry about if running with other RC equipped steamers, & much shorter transmit antenna!  Hope that answers your questions!                          Tom

[paintjockey]

Man, I really need to get one of those.

[Jim Banner]

Thanks, Tom.  Reason I ask is that I have been thinking about modifying a stock servo to work with DCC.  One way would be to convert the DCC decoder's output to pure dc and compare that to the dc output of the servo's potentiometer, then use the difference to drive the servo's motor.

As a steam traction engineer (which lets me operate our province's only operational steam locomotive) I am intrigued by your use of the steam cutoff to control speed.  Not a great idea with D-valves, but with piston valves, why not?   

[Kevin Strong]

I'll echo Tom's sentiments about the ability of live steam for prototype operations. The electric mice are certainly adequate, but live steam can work just as well. I've got two live steam locos that see routine service on the line.

The catch with the live steam is that you need to be in a position to be constantly attentive to the loco's needs. It's great when you're the only one out running, or with a group of like-minded, focused folks, but if you're planning on running trains while entertaining guests, then stick with the electric mice.

My electric mice run on batteries, so I don't have to worry about track power. It really doesn't matter what you chose as your first train, just find something that appeals to you and run with it. If you decide later that you want to go another direction, then you can sell the old stuff to finance the new. There's always someone willing to buy it.

Later,

K