DCC for Williams by Bachmann O Gauge

[stargazerm42]

Need help in what I need to install DCC receiver in Williams SD45 engine.  What receiver to use?
Also it looks like there is no DCC plug under the hood.  Is there a web link that could help me?

Thanks for the help,
Tom

[Joe Satnik]

Dear Tom,

This is the first I've heard of using DCC in a 3-rail-O locomotive.  (It could be that I haven't been paying attention....)  

Do you mean MTH's DCS?

Regardless, it is just a matter of disconnecting and removing all WBB boards, then wiring in the receiver between the track pickups and the DC motors.  The wheel pickups are usually connected to the frame.

You should have (and know how to use) a volt-ohm meter and a small soldering iron if you want to do the conversion yourself.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik  

[DominicMazoch]

DCC is square wave AC, and the decodes rectify ir to DC for the motors.  I think one would have to remove the E and sound units, and place the DCC boards onboard.  Also, I I have heard the motors have to have ground isolation.  there is a DCC group on the ORG forum.

[Len]

Actually, since the motor inputs are isolated from the chassis it would be simple to install DCC in a WBB loco using a G scale decoder after removing the E-unit and sound board. Not sure why anyone would want to do that, unless they plan to convert all of their locos, but it could be done.

You could also upgrade to TMCC with the appropriate boards from ElectricRR or Digital Dynamics, or DCS with a set of boards from MTH.

Len

[phillyreading]

If you are planning to upgrade to DCC, you may have to change out your transformers!! To be sure "read the DCC article or questions about DCC on here by Bachmann".

My advice here is to know what you are getting into when trying to go to DCC or command control.

Lee F.

[stargazerm42]

Thanks for everyone's input.  I will look for information on the DCC forum.
Tom

P.S. - I thought I saw on the Digitrax website, O scale decoders for DCC to use
with the Digitrax system?

[phillyreading]

Thanks for everyone's input.  I will look for information on the DCC forum.
Tom

P.S. - I thought I saw on the Digitrax website, O scale decoders for DCC to use
with the Digitrax system?

What you may be looking at is ON30, which is O scale trains on H.O. gauge tracks. That is in my opion oversized H.O. trains made to look like S scale trains, that many claim are O scale trains running on H.O. track. So DCC will work with those as they are H.O. trains basically!


Lee F.

[Len]

Thanks for everyone's input.  I will look for information on the DCC forum.
Tom

P.S. - I thought I saw on the Digitrax website, O scale decoders for DCC to use
with the Digitrax system?

To tell them apart, "O scale" is generally used to refer to the 2-rail O equipment that operates on DC or DCC. "O gauge" is used to refer to 3-rail AC equipment, with or without a command system such as TMCC or DCS.

Using DCC on 3-rail equipment would be a bit unusual. It can be done, but it's not common.

Len

[Joe Satnik]

Dear All,

The modern 3 rail locos with quiet DC can motors draw much less current than the old growling universal motors (Lionel Pullmor, e.g.).   

The older motors would need receivers with higher current ratings (running and stall).

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik 

[phillyreading]

Len,

There are some companies that claim their product is O scale (Lionel or MTH) and it runs on three rail & is AC powered. However Lionel did make some three rail trains that ran on DC during the late 1970's or early 80's.

While two rail trains are generally considered O scale, they normally run on DC.

From my understanding of the hobby; gauge generally refers to the track size or heigth, and scale refers to the size of the trains themselves(engines and rolling stock).
Hopefully this clears up some common mis-understandings.
As I have been into O gauge trains since the 1970's.

Lee F.

[trainkrzy]

  Universal motors will run on AC or DC ( hence the name "universal" ). Lionel motors have always been able to run on DC, however the E-units will not. To operate a pullmor locomotive on DC you have to disconnect the E-unit, and reverse track polarity to reverse the direction of the locomotive.                    BJ

[Joe Satnik]

Dear TK,

I guess I don't understand why an E-unit would not operate on DC. 

The only requirement is that the solenoid has enough voltage to hold its shaft  in the "energized" position. 

To do this, old Lionel transformers immediately jump from 0 volts up to 5 or 6 volts AC at the smallest application of the throttle.   

DC can motors fly down the track at 6 volts.  It's a little difficult doing switching operations with a "jumpy" loco (which is actually caused by the transformer).

From Wiki:

"A series-wound motor is referred to as a universal motor when it has been designed to operate on either AC or DC power. The ability to operate on AC is because the current in both the field and the armature (and hence the resultant magnetic fields) will alternate (reverse polarity) in synchronism, and hence the resulting mechanical force will occur in a constant direction."

In other words, changing the rail polarity won't change the loco's direction. 

You need to reverse the current direction in the field, or the armature, but not both, to reverse a universal motor. 

I'm pretty sure the e-unit reversed the current direction in the field.

If you were to do this with DCC, you would need an extra channel to control the current direction to the field.  The channel would drive a DPDT solenoid wired so as to reverse polarities, which is.....what the e-unit does. 

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[Len]

Lee,

I'm aware that technically 'gauge' refers to the track spacing and 'scale' to the proportions of the people, buildings, locos, rolling stock, etc.

There is also a long standing convention, not a defined technical usage, where "O Scale" is used to refer to 2-rail track and equipment, and "O Gauge" is used when refering to 3-rail track and equipment. It's unfortunate some manufacturers are drifting away from this convention, as was Lionel's dropping the "O/O27" terminology when no one else did, to the confusion of many.

Doing trains since the 50's.

Len

P.S. for BJ - Electro-mechanical E-units work fine on DC. Many people add a bridge rectifier to their E-unit to eliminate the buzz from the solinoid caused by AC current. The problem with using DC with post-war locomotives is if there is a whistle or horn, it will go off constantly because DC is used to trigger the whistle/horn operating relay. Modern equipment, with digital sounds, will blow the whistle/horn in one direction and ring the bell in the other, as the DC polarity determines which sound is triggered.

[phillyreading]

With Lionel gettting away from the "O/027" terminology, this is only going to add to the confusion in the hobby for the 1/43 to 1/48 scale models that Lionel primarily had.
There used to be a long time understanding that 027 was a bit smaller size train and track then O gauge three rail track & trains were.

So now what do we call a train that falls short of the O gauge classification but isn't O scale as most people would call it?

We don't want to call it standard size O gauge as this will lead to confusion about Lionel's Standard Gauge, approx. 1/32 scale(maybe larger), trains from the pre & post war era's. Also don't want to call it 'classic size' as this may add to the confusion as well.

Lee F.

[Len]

Lee,

Regardless of what Lionel did in their catalog, when talking with customers in the retail store and my repair shop I still use the O/O27 terminology. It's less confusing for everyone.

When Lionel first announced their unilateral change to "Standar O/Traditional O" you would believe how many customers came in looking for Lionel's 'resurrected' Standard Gauge track and equipment. They'd tend to get a tad upset when they finally understood if they wanted new Standard Gauge track and equipment it'd be from MTH.

Oh! The only standard in Standard Gauge was the 2-1/8in rail spacing of the track set by Lionel. The trains and buildings were considered toys, and their actual scale varied all over the place within and between manufacturers.

Len