2 boys, 2 trains, 1 layout?

[trainmama]

I'm totally new so this may seem like a very elementary question.

I have 2 boys (not counting 1 husband) that want to start model railroading.  They are both getting starter sets for Christmas.  Of course, each boy wants to operate his own train, but on the same layout (we don't have room for 2).  We also are not going to use DCC, we just want to use the controllers that come with the set.   We know nothing about 'blocking' part of the track - I don't even know if that applies to EZ track.

SO, do we need to have 2 totally separate tracks??  We do want it to be interesting, not just an inside and outside oval.  They both want a tunnel and 1 'needs' a bridge.  If this is the only way to do it, has anyone ever seen a track plan like this or have any ideas on where I can look?

ANY suggestions are greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

[ABC]

How much space do you have to work with? 4 feet by 8 feet, bigger, smaller
At any rate in order to operate 2 trains without DCC using the power sources that come with the sets, the 2 tracks must be separate. Also you will need to buy additional track, you will need 22" radius track to go around the 18" radius track that comes in the sets and you will probably need more straight track. The biggest thing is to not get overwhelmed and try and do too much too soon. I suggest buying an introductory book on model railroading and you can purchase a book of track plans to give you ideas.

[jettrainfan]

A bridge, eh? i got an idea that is both interesting and won't break the bank!

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=439857
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1273600

I'm not the best at explaining "how to..." so im gonna just gonna say have the bridge about 4-5 inches tall. I measured one of my geeps on my layout and it measured about 3 but its better to be safe than sorry. Also, this would be a good height if your thinking about getting double stackers in the future. I have none on hand so i can't inform you on how tall they are.

http://www.katousa.com/HO/MAXI-IV/BNSF.jpg

Do a little searching on the web and you should be able to find a building guide to this kind of bridge. good luck! 

[trainmama]

How much space do you have to work with? 4 feet by 8 feet, bigger, smaller
At any rate in order to operate 2 trains without DCC using the power sources that come with the sets, the 2 tracks must be separate. Also you will need to buy additional track, you will need 22" radius track to go around the 18" radius track that comes in the sets and you will probably need more straight track. The biggest thing is to not get overwhelmed and try and do too much too soon. I suggest buying an introductory book on model railroading and you can purchase a book of track plans to give you ideas.

I forgot to mention that we are using N scale.  I've read all the pros and cons of different scale sizes.  We really were limited on space - so it had to be N.  They are older so I think it will be okay.

We can use up to 36" x 80" of space.  What different radius curves do I need for N scale?

[ABC]

So approximately 3' x 6.5' that means that there is not enough room for 19" radius or 17.75" radius, but that does not matter too much because it is not necessary. Assuming you are purchasing Bachmann train sets. You will want to have 11.25" radius and 12.50" radius. The larger radius will go on the outside of the smaller radius, you will need to purchase the larger radius track separately along with a straight terminal re-railer and 4 packs of 5" straight track. The 11.25" radius is included in the starter sets and will not need to be purchased. You have room for a siding, but only one boy would be able to get a siding whoever had the inner most oval of track. Unless you are able to build and model your own tunnel, you will be hard pressed finding a tunnel that is made that would fit, unless you made the one oval smaller than the other then you would have space for two separate tunnels, but the one oval would be much smaller than the other. As far as the bridge goes for a beginning layout, try to avoid elevation changes because the locomotives included in train sets do not have the best pulling power and they would likely have trouble making it up grades (hills), which would make having a bridge hard.

[OldTimer]

Cab control wiring is very easy to learn, works well, and is not terribly expensive.  Each kid would have control of his own train and could go anywhere on the layout.  A hollow core door makes an excellent base for a starter n-scale layout.  Rest it on a couple of saw horses or short book cases and it will support itself.  You can use 11 in. radius track and have no problems. 

Go to your local hobby shop and get an introductory book on model railroading and an N-scale track plan book.  Atlas and Kalmbach both have books that will give you all the information you need.  Good luck.
OldTimer

[jettrainfan]

if its N scale, then i used the calculations for Ho, still, you can do the bridge idea, it'll just be smaller in height.

[NarrowMinded]

I know you said your not doing Dcc but you could find a Bachmann Ez command system and a plug in walk around companion unit for about half retail online. They are very simple to use, they connect to the layout using the exact same plug as the standard controller and if you buy bachmann dcc engines they are set up to run with these.

By going with dcc you will save yourself headaches with wiring, headaches with a layout designed to run with two kids running at the same time, and most important you will have less fighting over who runs what train where. Both trains can run any where anytime in any direction.

I have  3yr and 6yr old girls that build their own eztrack layouts plug in all the connectors and run trains together using the bachmann ezcommand system

NM

[ABC]

I have  3yr and 6yr old girls that build their own eztrack layouts plug in all the connectors and run trains together using the bachmann ezcommand system

They are using N scale, and the locos included in all the N scale sets are DC. They would have to buy a 44 tonner, a GE Dash 8-40C*, a 4-8-2 heavy mountain*, or a 2-8-0 consolidation. So basically, that leaves either 44 tonners (MSRP $105) or consolidations (MSRP $200). The 44 tonner would be the best bet, you can find it for $80 online, but that is still too much for just starting out in the hobby, if they were doing HO it would be very feasible, but since they are doing N, $160 is too much.
*Does not run on 11.25" radius

[NarrowMinded]

You make some good points ABC, but having seen this same senario countless times I still think they would be money and enjoyment ahead by spending the extra money. I realize times are hard for many, so starter sets maybe the answer, as newbies to this I just think they would be off and running quickly and having fun with dcc EZ commands.

Just my two cents
NM

[Jim Banner]

While I am a fan of DCC, block operation is still a viable option, particularly when you already have the power packs from the two train sets.  Trainmama hasn't mentioned the ages of her boys, but having observed my own kids and now my grandkids working computers and video games, I am sure operating block control will not be beyond them.  I am more concerned that setting up block control will be something of a pain, particularly if no one in the family knows something about electric wiring.  But we can deal with that problem when we get to it.

Before figuring out how to wire a layout, we have to know what we a dealing with.  In other words, we need a track plan.  What I have sketched below is not intended as a finished, ready to build plan but rather it is a suggestion of some things that I feel and successful plan should include.  First and foremost is a feeling of purpose.  No railroad runs trains around in circles just for the fun of it.  Trains are run to move people and goods from place to place.  Many H0 layouts have been built on 4' x 8' sheets of plywood and have been successful because they have a purpose.  The suggested N-scale layout at 36" x 80" translates to 5'-6" x 12'-3" in H0, or over twice the area, so certainly a successful layout should be possible.

Having said all that, the sketch below shows a 36" x 80" layout with an extra narrow shelf added to make it even longer.  Without knowing where and how the layout would be built, I have no idea if this is practical.  But I have seen the idea of a narrow shelf used many times - through the wall and over the head board of a bed in a spare bedroom, along a wall and under the overhang of a bar in a family room, and along the shelf formed by the pony walls in a split level house.  One of the best uses of space I have seen used a narrow self running half way along one long wall of a living room, across the end wall, and half way back along the opposite long wall.  It eliminated the table completely, so continuous running was not possible, but being narrow, it ran over the tops of sofa and chair backs, on the top of a book case and over a television set.  In effect, this layout occupied zero space in the room, and yet was a fully functional layout.  Incidentally, it was in N-scale.  All that I am suggesting is that if such a shelf extension to the 36" x 80" space is possible, then it would greatly increase the feeling of going somewhere and doing something.  Such a feeling can be achieved by having a divider down the center of the layout, dividing it into two 18" x 80" scenes, but that implies that the layout can be moved out from the walls while running so that the operators can walk all the way around the table.  I suspect that is not the case here, but perhaps trainmama wil enlighten us.



Some of the other things shown in this diagram are a mountain with a tunnel through it in the upper left hand corner.  The dashed red line indicates track hidden inside the mountain.  The heavy black line with inverted U's is the base of the mountain and the tunnel portals.  Running down the side of the mountain (heavy blue lines) is a river, which continues right across the table and requires a bridge for the railroad to cross it.  At the front of the table are a couple of sidings.  The upper one has a station, a freight shed, a diesel fuel storage tank and a sanding tower.  The lower siding serves a tank farm/refinery and a number of industries.  Near the very front of the table is a road for that other method of transportation.  Toward the back of the table, there are two open spaces separated by a track.  These could serves more industries or could be forested or could be farm land or (insert your favorite use here.)

While oil tanks, stations, warehouses, industrial buildings, and so on can all be purchased, often fully assembled in N-scale, there is a lot more play value in building your own.  Small boxes, blocks of wood or pieces of Styrofoam quickly become buildings while cardboard rolls covered with aluminum foil and small tin cans make serviceable tanks and towers.  Blue paint can be a river, grey paint a road, and green paint, with or without dyed sawdust, can become grass and fields.  Buildings along that narrow shelf, should that be possible, can be very shallow or even just flat pictures of buildings.  Don't worry if the layout doesn't start off looking perfect.  Let the boys develop their eyes and their talents as time goes by.  For example those building flats, which might start out as a sort of rectangle as a building along with some sort of squares as windows and doors may in a few years be replaced by photographs of local buildings or pictures cut from magazines or calenders.  Remember that zero space layout I mentioned?  The builder made extensive use of building flats that improved as he got older.  In his case, he didn't change his methods - he improved them, becoming an artist in the process.

The track itself in the above sketch allows both continuous running around a loop, reversing the directions of the trains on a reversing loop, and a remote location where the locomotive has to uncouple from the head of its train and run around the train to pick it up from the other end before bringing it back.  This operation assumed diesel locomotives, which in any case are less troublesome than steam locomotives, and gives one boy something to be doing while the other is shuffling some cars around in town, or just running around the loop.  When the time comes, the trains can switch places and the roles the boys are playing also switch.  This type of operation requires both cooperation and independent operation, much like on a real railroad.  It is operation with a purpose and a lot more interesting than just running trains around in circles.

Block wiring for something like the above would be relatively simple.  Off hand, I would say four blocks, one of them being a reversing block.  In any event, few enough blocks that the boys should not be overwhelmed.  The parents, that might be a different story.  It is possible that trainmama (and maybe trainpapa?) will have to learn a few new skills as well, but who knows, if the bug grabs them all, we may be dealing out helpful hints to trainfamily.

Jim   

[Colorado_Mac]

DCC would certainly be easier, but block wired DC would be a more educational (at least for trainpapa!) start.  So many kids today can handle the most complicated computers, but have no idea what comes out of the wall to make those computers hum!

That said, I'm just glad to see two new young'uns potentially in the hobby!

[jward]

i"d recommend buying a copy of the book "Nine N Scale Railroads" published by atlas. you can probably find it in any decent hobby shop for well under $10.

this book shows how to build a variety of layouts of varying complexity, including how to wire them for two or more train operation. while the plans show the use of atlas track components, it should be pretty easy to construct similar plans from ez track if you are so inclined. 4 of the plans include elevated sections with bridges, and most could be adapted to have at least one tunnel somewhere.

one final word of advice, this coming from years of experience in N scale:

unlike larger scales, having a derailment in a tunnel in N scale can be a major problem. the tunnel portals are so small you can't just reach in and retrieve your trains. be sure to provide another way to access the inside of the tunnel, such as leaving an access hole from under the layout, inside the mountain......

[trainmama]

Thanks so much for all your suggestions and tips!  I did pick up "Nine n Scale Model Railroads".  Block wiring looks like a doable option.  I also did some more shopping (eBay, online hobby stores) and I really think DCC is out for now.  If the boys stay interested and are ready to move to the next level we could acquire the DCC system slowly.

I really thought overlapping 2 separate tracks (up and over), with each track having one siding the end of the track away from the overlap was the answer.  But now I'm leaning toward block wiring IF we can use the 2 controllers that came with the starter sets.  There are a couple layouts in the book that fit our needs, we are using a 32" door.

@ Jim:  You mention using the power packs that came with the train sets for block wiring.  Do we cut the red wires that connect the terminal derailer to the power pack and splice in wires from the selectors?  I understand all the wiring outlined in the Atlas book - but the "plug in" on the controller and rerailer have me confused.  Also, can I use Atlas terminal joiners on the E-Z track? 

Are the 2 accessory connectors on each power pack enough to run 4-5 turnouts, a crossing, and a few lighted buildings?  Or do I need a separate power source for them?

I've read a lot about faulty N scale E-Z track turnouts.  Should I use Atlas (brought to grade with roadbed) instead to avoid all the hassle?  Trainpapa is a gunsmith - fitting metal parts is his forte.  However, I'd rather avoid problems if possible.


Also, is there a difference in Cab and block wiring - or is it the same?

[greasyspoon]

The DCC option may not be out.

I am new to this was well.  I have two boys 7 & 8, and we are getting them a train set for Christmas as well.  Not sure of your location but if you have a hobby lobby (www.hobbylobby.com) in your area (Southern US)  but they are down sizing their train section across all locations. I just got the Digital Commander Deluxe set for 80$, was marked 230$   It came with two engines.  They had one I wanted to get call the Overland limited for 70 (was 200) but it had been sold. 

Also every other week the have an online coupon for 40% every other week you can print out.  I tend to buy things on those weeks.

Track design will be interesting.  They want everything Bridges, tunnels, water, and even a bomb out WWI section , and this and I know the two tracks can't cross or there will crashes yells for me to come fix it.