Metal Wheel Tire vs Traction Tire

[Trains Again]

PCM (Precision Craft Models) has something on their engines called "Metal Wheel Tires" which is suppose to be a new thing compared to Traction Tires.

My question is, what is the difference?

[Virginian]

Metal tires are not new; all brass steam engines have always had them as much as I can recall.  PCM just points out that they have cast drivers with metal tires.  Actually, traction tires are usually installed in a groove that only encompasses part of the width of a metal rimmed or tired driver, and not all drivers on an engine usually have them; generally only one pair.  Traction tires are usually made of an elastomeric compound (rubber or plastic) rather than metal.  The coefficient of friction between metal and said elastomeric compounds is greater than that between metal and metal, thereby yielding greater tractive power.
Different types of metal tires can give decidedly different results. on the same (nickel silver) rails.  Shiney plated drivers usually benefit from a decent break in period.  The apparently die cast drivers on the early BLI N&W Class As were very good for traction (and paint), but they went to a shinier version in later renditions for better wear or so I am told.  Athearn's old sintered wheels got better traction that the newer ones, but also collected dirt quicker, in my opinion.
Some people hate traction tires.  They go on about how they come off and do this or that, and they are not prototypical.  (Like little electric motors powering steam engines are prototypical).  Some people like me think they are great, that you have to look real hard to even spot them, and that if they are correctly done there are almost zero problems (in 30 years of using them).  BLI was giving people a choice, which was perfect to my mind.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, obviously.
In my opinion, PCM can get by without traction tires and still achieve decent performance due to their weight, but I still wish they had provided a spare traction tired set.  P2K earlier on, and Athearn could have greatly benefitted from traction tires.

[rogertra]

Traction tires should be banned.

Awful things.  When initially installed they are probably just, and only just, acceptable.  Unfortunately, they get worn down, they expand and contract, they dry out and for various reasons get bent out of shape and locos with traction tires end up, after a few years, wobbling around the track like drunken sailors.

And then there's the issue, after tens years or so, of finding replacements because the locomotive manufacturer no longer supplies them.

[lanny]

My comments in no way are intended to generate any arguments or debates. The BLI steam (Heavy Mike) that I kept has traction tires and one set of replacements. The traction tires make a very big difference in how many cars it will haul up my 2-7 - 3.4% grades. It is the only locomotive I have that has traction tires. Others, if properly weighted also haul a nice number of cars 'upgrade' without traction tires.

I think the early P2K Heritage 2-8-4 (I had one and sold it) made a big mistake not offering traction tires. It was a beautiful running engine that, in my estimation, was poorly weighted and did a very poor job pulling anything up my grades.

I personally wish Spectrum offered the 'option' of tracton tires with its steam locomotives, specially the 2-8-0s, 2-10-0s..

As for Roger's comments ... I have no doubt that over time, wear and age will effect them, so if companies offer them, they need to offer replaceable sets as well.

I'm guessing (emphasize the word 'guessing') that what PCM is offering as to metal tires (if they do not offer optional traction tires) will work well with whatever locomotive they come with.

lanny nicolet

[Trains Again]

Thank you for the information Virginian. So metal wheel tires don't have a groove in the wheel? Its interesting that metal against metal would actually give traction. I'm guess metal wheel tires don't break nearly as easily also?

As for traction tires, I personally love them. Unless you have super old Rivarossi traction tires, the traction tires made now days work great, and very rarely break. They give a huge boost for pulling power. The ones now days don't make the engine wobble at all. I have a friend who machines out his own traction tire groove for his steam engines. He'll add 4 tires to an articulated steam engine, and have it pull tons of cars

I would also like Bachmann Spectrum to have a spare traction tire axle included when someone buys one of their engines. It would really help my 2-10-2 pull a lot more.

[Atlantic Central]

Roger,

Banned? The only thing that should be banned is the idea that anything should be banned. There are more than enough Socialists allready trying to tell everyone how live in other aspects of life, lets keep them out of model railroading please.

Virginian is right, choice should be the order of the day. This is the one marketing issue that BLI/PCM got right, the extra driver set and replacement traction tires included with the loco.

It solves all your complaints Roger. If you don't want it, don't install it. They even side with you by installing the metal one at the factory and leaving the traction tire version to be installed by the user. And they supply an extra set of the tires, so you can get many years of service even if they go out of business or the parts are not available. AND, in the worst case, all you have to do is reinstall the metal tire version.

I like my new locos with the new generation of traction tires and have yet to have a problem. AND, even my Mantua General with an O-ring traction tire on just one wheel has NEVER wobbled and pulls very well.

It seems to me Roger that your opinion is colored by the performance of products offered decades ago, not on a fair examination of the current offerings. Yes, I remember those AHM locos with all the traction tire problems, that was the 70's this is now.

Sheldon

[Virginian]

One more note.  The Stewart Enterprises traction tires can be adapted to just about any engine with grooved drivers with a little effort.  Clean the groove, use the right size tire, glue it in place in 3 places with either ACC or Goo (much more difficult to not make a mess), and then trim it down until the outside diameter matches the driver.  A needle file cleaned very often works well in my opinion.

I have been tempted to get a lathe and groove my locomotive's drivers that do not already have them more than once.  I still have one old Rivarossi Y6b with trimmed down flanges and the traction tires are still fine.  Just don't get oil on them, and glue them in place and they are fine.

[GN.2-6-8-0]

I myself have never cared for traction tires' They will not let drivers slip when needed thereby risking burning out a motor also i would rather do what the prototype roads did....add a helper engine. Nothing cooler than a train slogging upgrade with one of my 2-8-8-2s cut in behind the road engine. 

[Atlantic Central]

GN.2-6-8-0,

That's fine, I double head a lot too. But the fact remains that physics does not "scale down" and no amount of weight will make model steam locos have the tractive effort of their prottypes.

Those of us interested in pulling prototypical length trains are happy to have locos like the BLI N&W Class A (2-6-6-4) with a traction tire axle which allows it to pull about 80 free rolling cars, or the BLI Reading T-1 (4-8-4) that can pull 60-70 cars, similar to their prototypes.

As for burning out motors, not likely, but anyone that careless deserves what ever he gets.

Again, no one is suggesting locos should come ONLY with traction tires, but we don't need Roger's "traction tire police" approach.

The pulling power of many of these beautiful locos on the market is marginal at best. Traction tires solve that problem. Example, I quickly ruled out the Proto 2000 Berkshire when reports of its poor pulling abilty came to light. A Berkshire needs to pull more than 15 or so cars to be credible on a model train layout in my opinion.

Sheldon

[jsmvmd]

Dear Friends,

Several years ago I bought a Sesame Street G scale set with traction tires. They promptly rotted from use and current (I think) in about 30 min.  George Schreyer described this on his web site.  Aristocraft supplied new traction tires with the new material, but I never installed them. I dearly love the slip of the drivers when my little boys goose the throttle!  It is still a good puller without the traction tires.

I did not mean to hijack this tread, only to add my experience with a larger engine.

Best Wishes,

Jack

[rogertra]

I think Atlantic Central real meant to say that physics does 'not' "scale. :-)down"

Sheldon.

You are correct when you say my opinion is cououred by the traction tires of years ago.  However, I still like my drivers to spin if the load is too heavy, which they will not do with traction tires.

And yes, I do like the fact that suppliers now (generally) give you a choice if the make a model with the option of traction tires.  Look at the fuss that was made when Walthers reintroduced the ex Life-Like P2K 0-8-0 with only traction tires.  They offered replacement non-traction tires wheels for free.

Personally, I still think they are a bad idea but each to his own.

[Atlantic Central]

Roger,

Thank you, typo noted and corrected.

This is a topic on which I am big on choice, you should should not have to settle for locos with traction tires, and those who want the extra pulling power should be able to install/convert to them.

I see this the same way I see the DCC/sound issue. The market appears large enough and the cost small enough that manufacturers should provide these options.

We can only hope they are listening.

I purposely paid extra to get the newer run of the Proto 2000 0-8-0, to get the traction tires. That is one sweet running loco that pulls great, easily handling 40 cars, which a real 0-8-0 could do as well.

Now if I can just get traction tire drivers for my older Proto 2000 2-8-8-2's?

Sheldon

[ebtbob]

Good Morning All,

      Lots of good points here and I suspect if it went on long enough it would start to sound like guys arguing Ford vs Chevy......and let us not go there as this is a train forum.
      For me.....simply stated.....I have owned or now own engines that were equipped with traction tires.    I never had a traction tire go bad.   I do like the fact that BLI offers the modeler the choice of yes or no.   Ironically,  my BLI light mike came with the traction tire installed,  and the extra set of drivers was also equipped with the traction tire.    HEY......they didn't give me a choice.......Harrrrummmph!!

Bob

[Virginian]

Walthers has no plans to offer traction tired replacement wheelsets for the older P2K locos, even at a price, as of my last phone call about a month ago.  And, they had no spare traction tires either at that time.  I think I am going to see if I can find someone to do a bunch of wheelsets for me on a lathe to fit Stewart Enterprises traction tires.  I am not home and do not remember if the 0-8-0s wheels are very close to the 2-8-8-2s in size or not (I think they are).  If you want to get some done also, please email me, and that may factor into the cost.  (No one will be obligated to anything until I get a cost per wheelset)

[jsmvmd]

Dear Sheldon, et al,

I see where there is a going out of business sale for your Proto, and other makes.

http://www.discounthobbywarehouse.net/#Bachmann

Perhaps you already know about this?

Best Wishes,

Jack