B&O Power (Suggestions)

J3a-614 · April 13, 2010, 03:30:54 AM

I don't know how good this is, but it is a correct prototype for the B&O (Q-3 class, 100 engines, No. 4500 is in the museum), although the B&O went in for a high headlight and of course would move the bell, too.

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/187-5171

Incidently, very often these engines had footboard pilots, and footboards on the tenders, too. I wonder if Bachmann has spare footboards available, like those on the rear of the various C&O tenders. They're a handy item to put on other engines, including my own Bachmann NYC 2-8-0 that I hope to put to work on a Kanawha & Michigan connecting line on my C&O/Virginian layout (if I ever get around to building the monster).

I need to get a round tuit. My problem is, all I have are square tuits. . .

. . .I know, bad joke. . .

jonathan · April 13, 2010, 07:07:56 AM

Yep, saw that one. Seriously considering it. I understand they run great. I can live with the headlight location. It would match what I built, following the Q-10 prototypes. A bonus, is one can get a DC version, with sound. That is a bargain very hard to pass up.

There seems to be a mutual conspiracy to keep the bell up on the smoke box. Even the superdetail retailers offer that configuration as a standard. I can live with that, too. The manufacturers must have decided, a long time ago, that the bell was more cosmetically appealing up front.

Incidentally, I put allot of effort into mounting a front coupler on my Mike, for double heading purposes. Guess it wasn't a standard practice in the 70's.

There are rounduits all over my layout (footboards are one of them). You can have some of mine. I'm wrapped up in Spring Cleaning (tracks, wheels & couplers). I recently became a probationary member of a MR club, and I've invited the gang over to peak at my layout. Soooooo, I have to make sure everything runs well. Engine collecting and scenery will have to wait a bit longer.

Regards,

Jonathan

Woody Elmore · April 15, 2010, 08:16:54 AM

Hi Jonathan - I was a club member for a good number of years, having club members visit is a great idea. Don't worry about getting stuff to run. Coffee and donuts are a lot more important. You might even consider (if club rules permit) having an adult beverage handy.

As for couplers on steam engines in the seventies, it was hard to double head engines or even have the control to use them for switching so the pilot mounted coupler was often there just for decoration.

jonathan · April 16, 2010, 12:48:58 PM

This discussion of B&O power has caused me to study some railroad history; specifically, the merger that took place when the Chesapeake & Ohio swallowed up several railroads (including my beloved B&O)—thus, the birth of the Chessie System.

Because the C&O was a much larger operation, it makes sense that there is so much more model equipment available for the C&O. I must now reevaluate the goals for my own empire.

Would it make sense to have my B&O operation deliver its goods to a junction point, like M&K (or a similar point), where the goods would be transitioned to a C&O drag freight engine, for delivery to points East (like Newport News) or to points West (somewhere across the Ohio River)? I haven't found an example, yet. If something like this actually happened, it would be much easier for me to hunt for that special flagship, perhaps a T-1, or the nifty H-4 that our gracious host offers.

Apparently, I have more reading to do, along with saving my pennies.

Regards,

Jonathan

Colorado_Mac · April 16, 2010, 02:04:36 PM

That's interesting, Jonathan. I'm a fan of all the Chessie System lines, and I am considering creating a town for my (future) layout which the B&O and C&O both serve. It will probably be set in southwestern WVA, where the two came fairly close together, I think. If I make it the town up, but use the real railroads, I will have a lot more freedom to play around with facts!

J3a-614 · April 16, 2010, 10:22:25 PM

B&O and C&O--where did they join up? Which places would make the most interesting from a modeling viewpoint?

A lot would depend on the style of railroading you want to recreate. One example that would not be typical would be the major passenger operation at Washington Union Station, Washington, DC. The station in classic days was owned by the Pennsylvania and the B&O (both of which entered from the north), with the Southern, the C&O, Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line, and Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac all sharing space as tenants; switching in the station itself was handled by the Washington Terminal Company, which had its own locomotives (0-6-0s and 0-8-0s of Pennsy design but with conventional fireboxes in steam, blue boiler-equipped RS-1s in the diesel age). Operation was all steam prior to 1936 or so, when the Pennsy electrified and brought GG1s and P5s into the picture. Many trains terminated here from north and south, many were reshuffled with cars running through on the Pennsy and the southern connections, while B&O trains were wyed at the north approach to the station and backed in before proceeding north or west. Depending on era, passenger consists could be very colorful: Pennsy's red, Southern's two-tone green, Pullman green on about everybody else (this is in the 1920s), blue and grey on the B&O after 1935 or so, orange and maroon on the C&O prior to 1917, stainless steel and purple on ACL starting in the 1930s, classic stainless with modern black lettering on Southern and SAL in the streamline era (and citrus red, green and orange SAL diesels with purple and silver ACL diesels from about 1936 to 1947--more about this later.)

Locomotives for all these roads shared the twin roundhouses and turntables at a location called Ivy City, just north of the wye track outside the station. In the classic steam era, this would include 4-6-2s from B&O, SR, PRR, and RF&P; the latter would also have 4-8-2s and later would add beautiful Baldwin 4-8-4s. The Pennsy would add the electric power and in the '30s sleek E-units from ACL, SAL, and B&O would start to show up. The most interesting development is that about 1947 the RF&P began to substitute its post-war 4-8-4s for the ACL and SAL diesels, which had been running through from Richmond prior to this time. My guess is that this change had to do with payments between roads for handling through trains (I., RF&P was either paying mileage on diesels it didn't own, or wasn't getting paid for locomotive use and wanted to receive payments--wonder what the real story was). In any event, it was one of the few cases where steam (temporarily) displaced diesels.

This would almost have to be a huge layout, yet it would be primarily a switching road, with the twist that most of the equipment would be passenger cars! Not typical, and as expensive as all get-out, but glamorous and cool.

What would be more typical? There are several locations. They would include Huntington, W.Va. (location of C&O's main locomotive repair shop), with a B&O line coming down the Ohio River to terminate in a little interchange yard; part of the line continued along the Ohio (and paralleling the main line of the C&O) to an interchange with the Norfolk & Western at Kenova, W.Va. The N&W, by the way, came in on a line that was elevated well above the B&O and C&O as it crossed the Ohio there, and this required a large two-level station between N&W and C&O trains. Amazing as it may seem, all three roads still had passenger traffic until Amtrak day, including the B&O; the latter was a mixed train with caboose service, connecting Huntington with St. Louis line trains at Parkersburg, W.Va.

Another connection between B&O and C&O was at South Charleston, W.Va. This was a southernmost extension of the line out of Grafton to Charleston (part of which had been the Coal and Coke Railroad); the interchange point, on the south bank of the Kanawha River, required another large bridge that was shared with the local trolley line prior to the abandonment of the electric service in the late 1930s. Equally interesting was the interchange on the north bank of the Kanawha with, of all roads, the New York Central (formerly the Kanawha & Michigan). The former Coal and Coke station that the B&O and NYC shared would also be the terminal for Virginian passenger trains coming in on trackage rights on the NYC from Deepwater after the big bridge and connecting track there were opened in 1931. Two other operations of interest in this area included a New York Central line running north out of Charleston, running parallel to the B&O as far as Blue Creek, where it crossed the B&O on a diamond at the end of bridge before heading up into coal country to a place called Hitop, W.Va.; this was a school-bus service handled by a doodlebug, and later by an RDC, and lasted until 1959. Equally interesting was the interchange at Dundon, W.Va., with the 18-mile long Buffalo Creek & Gauley, which ran with steam until 1965!

There would be other locations, largely in Ohio, including a small town hot spot at Athens, and big-city passenger operations in Cincinnati and Columbus, but I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with them. Perhaps someone else can fill in the gaps.

In the meantime, watch this space for more B&O material. To quote the Bach Man, anticipate!

J3a-614 · April 16, 2010, 11:26:52 PM

J3a-614 · April 17, 2010, 01:50:27 AM

Here we go again, looking at B&O resources on the internet:

http://users.erols.com/ttrogers/index.html

M&K Junction at Rowlesburg, W.Va.

http://www.trainweb.org/zeniphotos/CSX8711MKJct.jpg

http://www.wvrail.railfan.net/mk.html

http://www.wvrail.railfan.net/d_tower.html

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/16342656

http://davecathell.tripod.com/cathelli.html

http://cg-tower.com/cpl/

http://www.trainweb.org/oldmainline/index.htm

http://borail.net/

http://www.electricearl.com/parkersburg/railroad.html

http://www.electricearl.com/parkersburg/index.html

http://community-2.webtv.net/billsrrempire/BaltimoreOhio/

http://www.wvrailmuseum.com/index.asp

http://ohiorr.railfan.net/bo.html

http://www.horailroad.com/bollman-truss-bridge/index5.shtml

http://indiana.railfan.net/picarc.html

http://willardlibrary.oplin.org/historical_railroad_photographs.htm

http://www.smethporthistory.org/bradford/BR&P/b&o/b&odepot.html

http://www.columbusrailroads.com/index.htm

http://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/index.html

B&O P-7 4-6-2s:

http://www.ironhorse129.com/Friends/DavyCormack/BO_Presidents.htm

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1980675

http://www.railarchive.net/rlsteam/misc.htm

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pt_of_rocks.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pt_of_rocks1.jpg

http://www.familyoldphotos.com/oh/2b/b_and_o_railroad_station_mt_vern.htm

http://www.railroadsignals.us/cplprimer.htm

http://www.btco.net/ghosts/railroads/street/streettrack.html

http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/index.html

http://rlhs.org/rrhistry/rrh192/BaltoBelt.html

http://www.american-rails.com/baltimore-and-ohio-railroad-links.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsfanatic/id23.html

http://www.westernrailimages.com/BO-Baltimore-Ohio-Railroad/BO-Baltimore-Ohio-Railroad/7244299_94UDm#465486826_76yVu

http://www.semaphores.com/

Whew!

J3a-614 · April 17, 2010, 02:16:43 AM

This is among the links above, but is valuable enough (at least I think so) to be in a place where you can find it easily.

http://www.ironhorse129.com/Friends/DavyCormack/BO_Presidents.htm

Again, that running gear is a lot like that of PRR K4s; could this be something for Bachmann to consider?

pdlethbridge · April 17, 2010, 03:43:20 AM

Somewhere I saw a photo of an engineer staring at the middle engineer side tire. It was off the rim and just leaning against the side rods. He had just brought the loco to a stop from 60+mph where it had come off the rim at speed. I bet it made a heck of a racket.

J3a-614 · April 17, 2010, 04:49:02 AM

I seem to recall the same photo, or set of photos. They were in some sort of coffee table book if I remember right, and it was on the B&O.

I wonder which made more noise--that banging tire and other parts or the engineer's heart as he's watching this tire being hurled about on the rods as he tries to stop without derailing.

Related matter--I have a copy of Al Staufer's "Thoroughbreds" (NYC Hudson book), in which he has a section of comments by the men who worked with these engines. One incident involved a 4-6-4 doubleheading with a 4-8-2 (Mohawk on the Central), and the Mohawk lost its main driver off the axle at high speed account of a burned journal. The train got stopped, no derailment, but both engineers were severely disciplined for not noticing at some point that the journal had to be cherry red, smoking, and with a strong smell of burning grease, too.

Like a lot of things, like flight, driving on mountain roads or in snow, and the sea, railroading isn't necessarily dangerous, but it can be terribly unforgiving of error.

jonathan · April 17, 2010, 06:33:47 AM

too...
much...
input...

Seriously, that is a great wealth of knowledge. I was aware of perhaps 20% of it. Seems to me I've seen alot of old layout photos, where Grafton was a very popular area to model.

Thanks, again, for collecting all these sites into one place.

I swore I would never go back to school....

R,
J

2-8-8-0 · April 17, 2010, 02:41:57 PM

B&O Power is the standard reference for B&O steam, but be careful, the book does have some misinformation in it (like my personal favorite, that the EL-5 were usra locomotives. THEY WERE NOT.)

"Q. The definitive history of the B&O Railroad Companys Q-class mikado locomotives" is hard to find, but is insanely detailed and technical. Want specs on class Q-odd? Want to see a diagram of every tender every used on any B&O mike? Its in there.

These 2, plus a good set of steam diagrams (such as those offered by TLC) is all you need. West End is also an excellent book, and has loads of information on the terrain B&Os biggest operated in.

Which brings me to models. Brass for you HO guys isnt a bad bargain; Samhongsa made a large number of steam for "Westside Model Company" most of which is available at very reasonable prices. They even did an EM-1, and the one I owned was the best running model loco I have ever seen; it also, due to its weight and running characteristics, would pull like...well, like a 2-8-8-4 should.

Why the lack of steam for B&O from plastic manufacturers, idk. The P1, Q4, and S1 at least were not only "generic" enough to be stand ins (or indeed, modeled from) USRA or other-road "heavy" versions of their type, and the 2-8-8-0 was immensely successful. It was better at what it did than the Big Boy, Allegheny, AC-12...only DM&IRs M3/4 and N&Ws Ys compare. (Here come the Big Boy fans, I can tell...because they ran those things over 3% grades and 12 degree curves for 40 years, amirite??)

An EM-1 model could, with detail changes, perhaps stand in for DM&IR and NP locos, but the EM1 was smaller than either of them (not only did B&O have insane grades, but also insane curves and tunnel restrictions.) A 2-8-8-0 model would be fairly road specific; UP also had some 2-8-8-0s, but they were quite a bit different.

Now, the good. The Q-3 was simply a USRA light mike, the P-5, a USRA pacific. The Spectrum 2-8-0 is a fair match for the E-27 2-8-0, and from it one could make a good L-2 0-8-0 (B&O made em that way, after all!). The C&O mountain from spectrum isnt a terrible representation of a T-3. But as far as "big" B&O steam, say Q-4 and up, its pretty grim. At least in N we have the Kato mikado, a pretty good "generic" heavy mikado.

B&O was the third largest railroad in the US, and seems from the amount of printed and web-based material to be in the top 5 in popularity. Why model makers ignore the possibilities ill never know.

Kind of why i have switched to C&O. Even in N, pretty good array of stuff is available. B&O always will be my favorite road, but until a good 2-8-8-0 and 2-8-2 come along, C&O it is for me.

pipefitter · April 17, 2010, 03:17:54 PM

February 1963, I haven't quite gotten over it yet

It's a sore subject.

Robert

pdlethbridge · April 17, 2010, 03:51:14 PM

huh?

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B&O Power (Suggestions)

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