Can use a Hudson (and maybe a 4-8-4)

[J3a-614]

Full Steam Ahead suggested he would like to see Bachmann produce a New York Central 4-6-4 (and he took an unfortunate amount of ribbing due to his typing); the engine, as he pointed out, is a classic, but as some of the others suggested, has been or is in production by others, going back as far as an American Flyer AC version in the prewar era, in the same time period as Varney's Dockside and MDC-Roundhouse 0-6-0.  For that reason, even I would question that choice; in some ways, it would be like another Pennsy K-4.

At the same time, to produce a new 4-6-4 has a number of marketing challenges.  Not many other roads have the following of the NYC and its 275 4-6-4s, and of the others that had the type, the rosters were much smaller.  The second-largest owner of Hudsons was Canadian Pacific, with 65 engines; other owners had a dozen or less, and two, the Toronto Hamilton & Buffalo and the Maine Central, had only two each.  This is not a small consideration, especially when you consider that a new engine is supposedly a $250,000 investment in tooling and other incidentals. 

One thing that could help is the fact that most 4-6-4s had 79 or 80 inch drivers.  This is important because most modern steam locomotives--essentially anything with a trailing truck--had a driver axle spacing about 3 or 4 inches greater than the diameter of the drivers.  I suspect this is the minimum clearance that would accommodate flange clearance and brake rigging.  Some engines would have greater spacing, but this was usually due to weight distribution (USRA 0-8-0s), or to allow for other components (such as a firebox that would drop between axles in a 4-6-0 or 2-8-0).  Basically, this means a common mechanism can often be used for engines of the same driving diameter; Bachmann already does this with its 80-inch drivered 4-8-4s, based on AT&SF, NYC (Niagara), and Southern Pacific (Daylight) prototypes. 

On this basis, here are what would be my suggestions for new 4-6-4s:

My first example requires I declare a certain amount of prejudice, as I am a C&O modeler.  Still, C&O's 4-6-4s used a tender Bachmann makes that goes with the C&O 2-8-4; certain other parts, such as a trailing truck, were interchangeable, too.  Both the Baker-geared 1942 L2s and the poppet-valved postwar L2as were built by Baldwin; 78" drivers:

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-11.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1050.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1106.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1158.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1162.jpg

Another one, Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, Baker gear, 78" drivers:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/photos_by_laurence/3801376761/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomas-merton/3918657600/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomas-merton/3917872735/in/photostream/

http://www.llarson.com/steam/schenzinger/images/NA42.jpg

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//july98/07-07-98/cbxq3003.jpg

The Milwaukee's conventional 4-6-4s had 80" drivers:

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/MIL137.JPG

http://www.oldmilwaukeeroad.com/content/progress/photopages/photo09a.htm

DL&W:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_dlw1151.jpg

Wabash, 80" drivers (home rebuild from 2-8-2):

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//january99/01-01-99/ns1394.jpg

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//january99/01-01-99/ns1395.jpg

New Haven (made elsewhere, so not necessarily a candidate here), 80":

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//july99/07-26-99/nh1408.jpg

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/hudson/nynhh1409.jpg

There are other 4-6-4s, but they are not included here, as the change in driver size is too great, resulting in different overall proportions.

There is another bit of a hole, and that's in medium-drivered 4-8-4s with wheels in the 74-to-76 inch range.  Again, the idea is that a common mechanism can help amortize the cost of tooling.

Again, we start with the C&O J3 and J3a, the latter class including an engine numbered 614:

http://leesome1226.tripod.com/Pictures/co614erietable.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-39.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-142.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-21056.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1418.jpg

Burlington's burly O-5 and O-5a:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1602802

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1312191

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=293065

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1082789

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1082793

Full-sized "brass" Burlington 5632:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=265628

Lackawanna had several types of 4-8-4s; the Q-4 had 74" drivers:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php?action=post2;start=0;board=2

Southern Pacific's first daylights were GS-2s, 76" drivers:

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP4412.JPG

Speaking of the GS-2s also brings up the GS-3s, which had 80" drivers like the currently produced GS-4.  Hmm, a change to single headlight insert, an open cab, modified tender with gangway account of open cab--could the GS-4 tooling provide a different engine?

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php?action=post2;start=0;board=2

A recent excursion favorite, 74" drivers:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=298516&nseq=5

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=298239&nseq=6

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=293804&nseq=7

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=284738&nseq=10

2008--or 1948?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=280515&nseq=16

There may be others; what else could you suggest?

Finally, Bachmann might even want to consider a New York Central 4-8-2, specifically an L1 or L2 of some sort, which was a freight engine with 70" drivers and Baker valve gear on the L2, like the USRA 4-8-2 currently in the line.  Note the variations in subclasses; I personally like the earlier engines with heavy, overhanging Elesco feedwater heaters that looked like H-10 2-8-2s on steroids rather than the later ones, which looked like Hudsons:

http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc2967_rcl.htm

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/NYC2618.JPG

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/NYC2872.JPG

http://transportmuseumassociation.org/images/exhibits/newyorkcentral2933.jpg

Have fun.

[Guilford Guy]

Not only have the Hudsons been done to death by Rivarossi, MTH, BLI and Brass Imports, It really is a only a one road engine. Slapping ATSF, GN or C&O on the side still doesn't change this fact. While Hudson's were fast, far more roads had 4-6-2s than 4-6-4s.

[ryeguyisme]

The Milwaukee Road hudson:

http://www.oldmilwaukeeroad.com/content/brief/photopages/photo12b.htm

No. 6402, an F6 "Baltic," set a world's speed record in 1934 pulling a five-car train between Chicago-Milwaukee. Built in 1930 by Baldwin, it had 79" drivers, 26x28" cylinders, was 94' long. Top speed on the run was 103 mph; average speed setting record over 61-mile distance was 92.62 mph; and for the full 85-mile trip, the average speed was 76.07 mph.

[J3a-614]

Guilford is right, 4-6-4s were relatively rare outside the NYC, and even on that road were dwarfed in numbers by 4-6-2s (275 vs. almost 500?).  Which tickles my brain cells again--NYC's most common 4-6-2 was the K-3 and all its subclasses, which 79" drivers--very close to the 80" drivers of PRR's K4s, suggesting another engine on the K4s mechanism (although it would also require a change in valve gear on a mechanism that may not be designed for it, as the USRA 2-10-2s are).  And while on the subject of 4-6-2s that are dimensionally close to PRRs K4s, we can't forget B&O's P7s--and No. 5300, the President Washington, is still with us in the B&O Museum in Baltimore; this next bit says something about why we still love steam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbCFdocYkiA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI99Dvpxo2w&feature=related

Found this while looking for K-3 specs:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/loco.htm

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/home.htm

I also find it interesting that while Alco built by far the largest number of 4-6-4s, including Milwaukee's streamlined F7s and all 275 of NYC's engines, Baldwin built the greatest variety (for C&O in two versions, Maine Central, AT&SF in two classes, Milwaukee's F6, Burlington, New Haven), while Lima built only a copy order for the Nickel Plate Road (the first engines having been built by Alco, which also turned out to be the last engines from the plant in Dunkirk, N.Y.).

Isn't steam trivia fun?

[Doneldon]

Full Steam Ahead suggested he would like to see Bachmann produce a New York Central 4-6-4 (and he took an unfortunate amount of ribbing due to his typing); the engine, as he pointed out, is a classic, but as some of the others suggested, has been or is in production by others, going back as far as an American Flyer AC version in the prewar era, in the same time period as Varney's Dockside and MDC-Roundhouse 0-6-0.  For that reason, even I would question that choice; in some ways, it would be like another Pennsy K-4.

At the same time, to produce a new 4-6-4 has a number of marketing challenges.  Not many other roads have the following of the NYC and its 275 4-6-4s, and of the others that had the type, the rosters were much smaller.  The second-largest owner of Hudsons was Canadian Pacific, with 65 engines; other owners had a dozen or less, and two, the Toronto Hamilton & Buffalo and the Maine Central, had only two each.  This is not a small consideration, especially when you consider that a new engine is supposedly a $250,000 investment in tooling and other incidentals. 


One thing that could help is the fact that most 4-6-4s had 79 or 80 inch drivers.  This is important because most modern steam locomotives--essentially anything with a trailing truck--had a driver axle spacing about 3 or 4 inches greater than the diameter of the drivers.  I suspect this is the minimum clearance that would accommodate flange clearance and brake rigging.  Some engines would have greater spacing, but this was usually due to weight distribution (USRA 0-8-0s), or to allow for other components (such as a firebox that would drop between axles in a 4-6-0 or 2-8-0).  Basically, this means a common mechanism can often be used for engines of the same driving diameter; Bachmann already does this with its 80-inch drivered 4-8-4s, based on AT&SF, NYC (Niagara), and Southern Pacific (Daylight) prototypes. 

On this basis, here are what would be my suggestions for new 4-6-4s:

My first example requires I declare a certain amount of prejudice, as I am a C&O modeler.  Still, C&O's 4-6-4s used a tender Bachmann makes that goes with the C&O 2-8-4; certain other parts, such as a trailing truck, were interchangeable, too.  Both the Baker-geared 1942 L2s and the poppet-valved postwar L2as were built by Baldwin; 78" drivers:

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-11.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1050.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1106.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1158.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1162.jpg

Another one, Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, Baker gear, 78" drivers:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/photos_by_laurence/3801376761/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomas-merton/3918657600/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomas-merton/3917872735/in/photostream/

http://www.llarson.com/steam/schenzinger/images/NA42.jpg

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//july98/07-07-98/cbxq3003.jpg

The Milwaukee's conventional 4-6-4s had 80" drivers:

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/MIL137.JPG

http://www.oldmilwaukeeroad.com/content/progress/photopages/photo09a.htm

DL&W:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_dlw1151.jpg

Wabash, 80" drivers (home rebuild from 2-8-2):

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//january99/01-01-99/ns1394.jpg

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//january99/01-01-99/ns1395.jpg

New Haven (made elsewhere, so not necessarily a candidate here), 80":

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//july99/07-26-99/nh1408.jpg

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/hudson/nynhh1409.jpg

There are other 4-6-4s, but they are not included here, as the change in driver size is too great, resulting in different overall proportions.

There is another bit of a hole, and that's in medium-drivered 4-8-4s with wheels in the 74-to-76 inch range.  Again, the idea is that a common mechanism can help amortize the cost of tooling.

Again, we start with the C&O J3 and J3a, the latter class including an engine numbered 614:

http://leesome1226.tripod.com/Pictures/co614erietable.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-39.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-142.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-21056.jpg

http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1418.jpg

Burlington's burly O-5 and O-5a:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1602802

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1312191

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=293065

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1082789

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1082793

Full-sized "brass" Burlington 5632:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=265628

Lackawanna had several types of 4-8-4s; the Q-4 had 74" drivers:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php?action=post2;start=0;board=2

Southern Pacific's first daylights were GS-2s, 76" drivers:

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP4412.JPG

Speaking of the GS-2s also brings up the GS-3s, which had 80" drivers like the currently produced GS-4.  Hmm, a change to single headlight insert, an open cab, modified tender with gangway account of open cab--could the GS-4 tooling provide a different engine?

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php?action=post2;start=0;board=2

A recent excursion favorite, 74" drivers:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=298516&nseq=5

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=298239&nseq=6

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=293804&nseq=7

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=284738&nseq=10

2008--or 1948?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=280515&nseq=16

There may be others; what else could you suggest?

Finally, Bachmann might even want to consider a New York Central 4-8-2, specifically an L1 or L2 of some sort, which was a freight engine with 70" drivers and Baker valve gear on the L2, like the USRA 4-8-2 currently in the line.  Note the variations in subclasses; I personally like the earlier engines with heavy, overhanging Elesco feedwater heaters that looked like H-10 2-8-2s on steroids rather than the later ones, which looked like Hudsons:

http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc2967_rcl.htm

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/NYC2618.JPG

http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/NYC2872.JPG

http://transportmuseumassociation.org/images/exhibits/newyorkcentral2933.jpg

Have fun.

The Santa Fe had 16.

[J3a-614]

Great to hear from another steam man!

You're right, AT&SF had 16 engines in two classes, but they weren't included because their driver sizes (72", same as a USRA 4-6-2, and a whopping 84", or 7 feet) was too far off from the 78"-80" standard for an interchangeable mechanism between models based on the above prototypes.  However, if someone did make a "7-foot" Hudson mechanism, it could be used for the second series of AT&SF engines and also for the streamlined Milwaukee F-7s and the C&NW 4-6-4s as well.  And that 84" size is what was also used under Milwaukee's A-1 4-4-2s--the original Hiawatha engines.

Didn't I see something recently about a new train set, based on the early Hiawatha, complete with the 4-4-2?

[Guilford Guy]

Fox Valley Models is doing the Steam Powered Hiawatha with an A class up front.
http://www.foxvalleymodels.com/hopassenger.html

[RAM]

The Santa Fe 3450 class had 79 inch drivers, and most of the 3400 class 4-6-2s had 79 inch drivers.  A few of the 3400 4-6-2s still had 74 inch drivers.

[J3a-614]

Came across these video clips while looking up something else, and thought they would be appreciated here, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXr6RZCIR2A&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0AGYIVjNIg&feature=related

J3a-614 is on film, too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrPGQMwXxM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0R9PkVB244&feature=related

Enjoy.

[fullsteamahead]

i could try to make a prototipe, i have a good pictrure. i would  just need the wheels and boiler and trucks. (i CAN do it.)

[Daylight4449]

i am desperate for a non brass j3a... not the hudson but the c&o such as good ol' 614

[ABC]

i am desperate for a non brass j3a... not the hudson but the c&o such as good ol' 614

Then make your own...there's nobody stopping you.

[Daylight4449]

ah... but i don't have tthe talent... maybe would try if i found a broken 4-8-4...