Early-Time Kits

[Bill Baker]

J3,

Thanks for the wonderful link to John Allen's G & D.  I've looked at some of it, but not all.  What impresses me most is the fact that most, if not all, of his locomotives are brass imports.  I didn't know that these highly detailed engines were manufactured back in the late 40's and 50's.  Also, what caught my eye was the track he used.  It appears all was hand laid.  I'm pretty sure they didn't have flex track back in those days and doesn't appear to be any sectional track used.  The turn outs, were they hand laid? I would appreciate a comment from one of our G & D historians to comment if they know.

Bill

[OldTimer]

Probably the majority of John's engines began life as most locomotives of that time--metal kits primarily made of zamac, a zinc and aluminum alloy and produced by such manufacturers as Mantua and Varney.  John superdetailed his engines (not always for a particular prototype) using lost wax brass castings from companies like Kemtron. 

Flexible track was available in the 50's but it was pretty crude.  HO rail was around code 100 which was a big improvement over tinplate track.  Atlas had flex track with brass rail and a fiber (sort of like very heavy cardbord)  tie strip.  Brass "staples" secured the rail to the tie strip.  Atlas also made numbered turnouts with brass rail and live frogs.  Another option was to spike rail to milled ties/roadbed.  Tru Scale produced wooden roadbed (straight, curved and flexible) that could be used as a base for hand laying track, and self-gauging tie strip/roadbed.  They also made turnout kits and complete track pieces that could be put together sort of like sectional track.  My recollection is that most of the G&D was hand laid.

John was a professional photographer.  He began to use scenes on his original G&D as locations for shots he took of Varney equipment for ads.  For years, Varney had the back cover of Model Railroader.  As a youngster, I looked forward to that back cover as much as the rest of the magizine. 

John loved to show off the G&D and was always ready to extend the hospitality of his home to servicemen stationed in the Monterey, CA area.  John's constant admonition to visitors who got to operated the Gorre and Daphetid was to slow down!  He insisted that folks run his trains at scale (or less than scale) speed.  Consequently, the G&D seemed bigger than it really was.

The G&D was destroyed by fire only weeks after John's death.  I don't think the cause of the fire was ever identified.  Somehow it seemed right.
Old Timer

[Chris350]

I remember some of those images from late 60's MR issues.  One that always stuck in my mind was a "Work Dino" clearing a wreck.  It was complete with an engine number on it's ribcage and a drover.

[Bill Baker]

Old Timer,

Thanks for the history lesson on John Allen.  I never knew John super detailed his engines. Wow, what an artist!  I remember the card board flex track.  I tried to lay sand ballast with water dilluted white glue....and you can imagine the warping and mess that it made.  This was about in the mid fifties. I must say that our hobby has come a long, long way. 

I know DCC wasn't even dreamed about back then, but do you know of any electrical block diagrams John made for the G&D?

J3 - I didn't mean to hijack your thread, but the subject of John Allen came up and I just had to ask a few question about him.

Bill

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

I remember some of those images from late 60's MR issues.  One that always stuck in my mind was a "Work Dino" clearing a wreck.  It was complete with an engine number on it's ribcage and a drover.

Wasn't it nice that someone who could create such an exquisite model railroad also clearly had a sense of humor about the hobby? 

[Chris350]

I remember some of those images from late 60's MR issues.  One that always stuck in my mind was a "Work Dino" clearing a wreck.  It was complete with an engine number on it's ribcage and a drover.

Wasn't it nice that someone who could create such an exquisite model railroad also clearly had a sense of humor about the hobby? 

True. Improved sense of humor needed in this world in general today..... Sadly it's often lost....

[J3a-614]

Bill, don't worry about "taking over;" this is meant to be entertaining and educational, your comments and questions are part of the reason I started this thing.

From having read "Model Railroading with John Allen" by the late Lynn Wescott (and I'm sorry it was a borrowed copy I had to return), John's locomotives were a somewhat eclectic mix of stock mass-produced engines with modified details, weathered brass engines, and some scratchbuilt and partsbuilt power.

No. 12 was an almost stock MDC 0-6-0, a model based on a turn-of-the 20th century engine built for the Southern Pacific.  This model was actually produced, in one form or another, from the late 1930s until the end of MDC kits.  Very old ones would have had 6 volt motors, which was the early standard.

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/12.html

No. 12 with scratchbuilt combine No. 5, which looks like a short car from the Sierra Railways Angels branch service.  Note that the piping is cast on, which we disdain today, but John managed, with paint and other work, to make it look good.

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/12and5.html

Scratchbuilt non-powered engines of very early prototype, not powered; Bachmann has a model of the Norris-built Lafayette that is similar to this.

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/assembly.html

Check out the Varney Dockside (subject of a rather extensive thread a while back) and the Silver Streak (Ye Olde Huff'n Puff) caboose in the background.

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/grandt2.html

Parts-built monster; Varney Reading 2-8-0 boiler (same prototype as Bachmann's old 2-8-0 that's no longer in production), Mantua 50" drivers (a common switcher size, also used under Bachmann's USRA 0-6-0 and the freelanced 2-6-2 that's based on it), a homemade frame (and likely side rods), and assorted other parts, including what I presume to be a Kemtron (now PIA?) Bethlehem tender booster.

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/34alone.html

No. 13, Emma the Dinosaur, helping unload Varney motors for the ad campaigm; wax on a wire armature:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/dinosaur2.html

No. 8, Mantua's Belle of the 80s, with hand lettering and striping:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/published8.html

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/number8better.html

I'm not sure what No. 40 was, but it looks like a brass AT&SF 2-8-2:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/number40a.html

No. 43, a brass AT&SF 2-8-4, and one of two surviving locomotives (the other is 4-10-0 34, mentioned above):

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/GD_43_full.html

No. 34 in action, approaching Gorre:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_00/slides/s0_009_enginehouse_unkdate.html

I'm a little short on time right now, so I'll just let you all explore some more.  Some engines that I do recall are a red 4-6-2, which was a slightly modified Bower NYC K-11 mated to a brass tender from Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) AT&SF 1950 class 2-8-0, a large PFM 2-6-6-2 of C&O prototype (class H-6. a modern 1949 version of Bachmann's new H-4), and a brass PFM Sierra 2-6-6-2 (which I think carried the prototype's number 38), and a Varney Casey Jones 4-6-0 modified with a high headlight and coupled with a modified (to coal) Kemtron Vanderbilt tender of Southern Pacific pattern (similar to Bachmann's medium Vanderbilt).

Enjoy your exploring.

[Doneldon]

The older kits from LaBelle's (same company as the one which makes the lubricants), Ambroid, Walther's (wood pasenger kits with metal sides) and Central Valley (same as the company which made the fabulous trucks and now makes bridges and stairways) are commonly available on ebay.  This is true for both passenger and freight kits.

Yes, Herkimer, Kasiner and OK all sold/sell the same kits.

Woddy - Ambroid sold many kits which weren't One-in Five-Thousand, though the 1/5000 were supposed to be something special since they had limited production.  And there were a iot more than 24 different 1/5000 kits.

[RAM]

Herkimer, Kasiner and OK all sold/sell the same kits. They were the same type of kits, but they were not the same.

[J3a-614]

OK, back for a little more exploring among the G&D photos:

4-6-0 No. 49, a Varney Casey Jones with a Kemtron tank; appropriate as both are based on SP prototypes; C&O H-6 partially visible to the right, and a modified Bowser Brill trolley is in the background.  Clicking on the photo will blow it up considerably, revealing, among other things, John Allen's use of a red light bulb to simulate firebox glare, and the hollowed-out headlight with lighted number boards:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_01/slides/s1_027_49etc_jul68.html

PFM Shay at Andrews, with a modified Atlas station:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_01/slides/s1_030_linnsarchives_sep69.html

Logging scene:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_01/slides/s1_029_logs_oct67.html

Roundhouse at Great Divide; this is a free-lance road, yet this scene and others somehow make me hear panting air compressors--flanges squealing--engines clumping onto the turntable, and the grinding sound of its tractor as it spins a locomotive--the roundhouse smells of smoke inside, and the men are preparing aging locomotives for another day--it helps when you've been in such a place, even if it is narrow gauge in Orbisonia, Pa. . .

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_01/slides/s1_019_great_sep63.html

Most impressive scene--part of the Giant Canyon.  Scenery here comes to the floor, which here is painted to look like a muddy river below. 

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_00/slides/s0_045_riverscalp2_jun65.html

Before dawn at the roundhouse in Great Divide:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_00/slides/s0_065_49_jul68.html

No. 25; like No. 12, based on an MDC-Roundhouse 0-6-0, but modified more extensively, with an extended front and new pilot truck, a new slot filed into the frame to move the rear driving axle behind the firebox (more typical of a road locomotive which this now is), with an appropriate lengthened side rod, and the main rod now connected to the middle driver, along with a new tender; check out the model railroad cars behind her, including a Marquette Union Terminal (MUT) car and one from the NMRA:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/The_Slides/Set_02/slides/s2_005_25bridge_feb72-orig.html

No. 56, the Bowser NYC K-11 in a panned shot:

http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/RMC-19710200-046-300_70.jpg

Have fun.

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

No. 13, Emma the Dinosaur, helping unload Varney motors for the ad campaigm; wax on a wire armature:

http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/Locomotives/slides/dinosaur2.html

I could use one of these for the morning and evening local when the 4-4-0 is in the shop. ...

[ryeguyisme]

OK, back for a little more exploring among the G&D photos:

keep in mind John Allen was a pioneer in model railroading, I'm only 21 and this guy is my idol, I have 300+ MDC replicas of his rolling stock(ridiculous I know) including a shay #7, and two 0-6-0's #'s 11 and 12

I recently acquired a bulline car from an auction so I gotta say I'm a huge fan, I also have a tendency to collect alot of varney, and I have some scratchbuilt brass engines and tenders as well.

don't you just love free lance?

[ebtnut]

I got to visit John just before his passing, and the G&D was as impressive in reality as you can imagine it from the pics.  One little side note:  John's house had originally only a partial basement.  There was only about enough room for the laundry and furnace.  He had to dig out a good chunk of dirt to expand the layout space, which did give him the opportunity to drop the scenery to the floor.  There was also a support column right in the middle of the layout area.  It was in the way, so he took it out!  In the living room upstairs, all the furniture was around the edge of the room, and you weren't supposed to walk in the middle of the floor.

[J3a-614]

Something else to spend (too much) money on. . .

http://www.sundayriverproductions.com/category.aspx?id=6

http://www.amazon.com/Model-Railroading-John-Allen-Fabulous/dp/0890245592

I wonder if either is available via inter-library loan.

Reportedly the house was not destroyed by the fire, only damaged and later repaired, and is supposed to still be standing today.  Can anyone confirm this?

[ryeguyisme]

The fire was started by pure accident, one of the operators turned the furnace on(which John never did due to faultiness) and during the night burned the house down, and theres an actual collection of photos of the aftermath, and its not for the faint of heart. I have to say looking at those photos makes your heart drop.

A great place  for those interested is a yahoo group dedicated to the legend:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GandD/

tons of information as well as photos, replicas, stories, spin-offs and other neat stuff.



I also have the VHS of film footage of the G&D and seeing number 34 pull a string of cars just inspired me ever so greatly, and hence I feel in love with that locomotive. And now that I'm older and have the ability to construct a replica with a background of experience in kitbashing, and an accumulation of parts as well as years of "study" on the subject. I have to admit I'm a die-hard fan.

"Model Railroading with John Allen" was the only book when I was 3 that I didn't put crayon into, I guess the bug started when I was really young