Walthers passenger cars

[SteamGene]

What is the minimum radius for the full length heavyweight and streamlined Walthers passenger cars?
Gene

[Atlantic Central]

Gene,

I don't konw the dead on minimum, but one member of our group has a train of the budd streamliners and they run fine on his layout which is 30" radius I believe.

They should run and look nice on your layout.

Sheldon

[SteamGene]

I've been having some problems with the curve at Bradyton station.  It seemed there was a short section that dropped below 30" radius and two Walthers would derail.  I've redone it and now they track well - but now I have less than two inch centers.  The strange thing is the curve begins exactly where the blueprint calls for it to begin. 
Of course every layout has its problem areas to solve. 
Now, how does one change couplers on these cars?
Gene

[ebtbob]

Gene,

       I have done the coupler change onseveral of the Walthers' heavyweight cars for a friend,  but without having the cars here,  cannot give you a step by step instruction as it has been over 6 months since I did them.   One thing to consider when dealing with derailments.    I have noticed over the past couple of years,  many of the derailments are caused by the "stiffness" of the cars diaphrams.    Even though they may be spring loaded,  they can cause problems.   What many of my friends are doing is putting a long shanked coupler on one end.   When this long shank is coupled to the shorter shank of the following car,  enough distance is put between the diaphrams to eliviate the problem and not really look that unsightly.

Bob

[Atlantic Central]

Gene,

I a have to agree with Bob, I don't care for the diaphragm set up. I only have one Walthers passenger car, but I removed the diaphragms and replaced them with American Limited ones (which I use on all my passenger cars). I also replaced the couplers with Kadee #26 (also a standard passenger car item on my layout).

I like the American Limited diaphragms because they are true working diaphragms that touch ans stay in contact at all times and have very, very light spring pressure. And they will work down below your radius, even on full length cars.

Sheldon

[lanny]

Gene,

Not sure that this is a 'good' idea, but it has worked very well for me. I have both Walthers and IHC passenger cars. My radius is generally 32-36", but in a couple of places drops slightly below 30" (29"?).

What I did was to place #5 Kadees in their original draft boxes, glue the draft boxes permanently closed, making sure the couplers had complete free play. I then trimed the outside edges where screws could be placed, and used a screw in the center hole only. I left the screw purposely loose enough so the whole Kadee #5 coupe/draft box had complete free play.

The Walther's diaphrams (and the IHC as well) with a couple of exceptions do not quite touch and I have had no derailment problems since doing this. (also added a bit of weight over the trucks).

lanny nicolet

[Atlantic Central]

Lanny,

Obviously you never push those cars backwards? There was a guy back in the 40's who perminately coupled his passenger cars with springs so they would just spread out on the curves from pressure on the diaphragms. I'm sure he weighted those cars like bricks to get that to work.

In the words of the NMRA Recommended Practices on Curvature and Rolling Stock - "the developement of freek or special equipment to allow longer cars to negotiate sharper curves is discourged".

American Limited diaphragms, installed as per the manufacturers recommendations, and with properly positioned long shank Kadee couplers, give nearly scale car spacing, and will operate down to the range of 26-28 inch radius with 80-85 foot cars.

Additionally, rather than leaving the unsightly gap found on Walthers and similar cars when coupled, the American Limited diaphragms touch and stay touching thoughout operation. I have even operated them through an Atlas #4 crossover!

I must say I was very disapointed the first time I saw two of those Walthers cars coupled and saw the gap between the diaphragms. All that detail, all that design work, all that money, and that is what they came up with? for that reason I have bought only one.

I have Athearn, ConCor, Bachmann, Branchline and Walthers passenger cars equiped as discribed above, ranging in length from 60 to 85 scale feet. They all work well together and look very realistic.

If you space the cars far enough apart, and make the couplers swivel enough, almost anything will work. the real goal here is to get both reliable operation and reasonably prototypical appearance.

Sheldon

[lanny]

Hi Sheldon,

You make good points, and no doubt, they are best way to go. Thanks for the comments.

I have two 'passenger' trains ... one is my ICRR "Iowan/Hawkeye" using IHC streamlined cars that are weighted, have IHC metal wheel/axles set in 'tuned' trucks (Reboxx truck tuner) and Kadee body mounted couplers in draft boxes that have 'free play'. The diaphragms, of course, are ridgid plastic and do not touch. I have to back my seven car passenger train around a 30" curve, through four # 6 turnouts to get into the main passenger terminal. I am able to do this without derailments and the cars, though not 'touching' are closer to each other than with the original truck mounted long shank coupler.

The other passenger train I have is a Chicago Metra commuter train modeled for my son, presently with 5 cars. It often runs in reverse, pushed by the Spectrum F40PH. Again, as you pointed out, the diaphragms don't touch, but they are quite close and in a couple of cases lightly brush against each other on curves.

All but one of these cars are Walthers bi-level commuter cars, the other is an old 'Holgate&Reynolds' metal bi-level CB&Q kit. Again, all trucks are reamed and run with metal wheel/axel sets as well as having body mounted, free-swiveling Kadee couplers. This train, when running 'cab car' forward (pushed by the power unit) runs at a much faster speed 'backwards' than when backing either train into the passenger terminal. Once I 'tuned the trucks' and added the swiveling coupler draft boxes, I have no derailments. (unless I forget to throw a turnout into the correct position ) 

If, however, I eventually go to a truly prototypical 'look' with diaphragms always touching, I believe what you suggest would indeed, be the best way to go.

Also, though I have no good 'technical reason' for my feelings, I just don't like 'long shank' couplers (But I do realize that tighter radius curves need them).

lanny nicolet

[Atlantic Central]

Lanny,

My concern was that the swiveling coupler boxes would cause a problem in reverse. Glad it is working for you.

The long shank body mounted Kadee #26 has this effect. As the cars go through the curve, the distance between the cars is not shortened as much as it is with #5's. This is what allows the cars to be close coupled and still go around curves that sharp, especially with the diaphragms.

Properly assembled and mounted the longer shank couplers work just as well as regular #5's. We are ony talking fractions of an inch longer, not long like truck mounted couplers on IHC/AHM passenger cars. But those fractions of an inch make all the difference.

Again, my concern was that your swivel #5's would not back up well. Do you install anything to limit the swivel?

Sheldon

[jsmvmd]

Dear Friends,

Wonderful comments from all!  Lots of good info for me to factor.  Recently, Jim Banner mentioned mounting the couplers to the body, instead of on the trucks.

Is this assumed in all your comments?

Best, Jack

[lanny]

Hi Sheldon,

That is helpful. Thanks. Regarding the Kadee draft boxes that hold the #5s or 'dummy coulers' on my cars; no, I leave them loose enough with a brass self tapping screw in the center so they swivel freely, but not so loose they have 'up and down' play.

Am I understanding you correctly? i.e., that the #26 Kadee is the same as a #5 only a longer shank and still would fit in the standard Kadee body draft box that mounted to the car body and doesn't have to be left loose?

That would be very helpful. Also ... do I understand you correctly that in doing that, then I could replace the existing ridgid plastic diaphragms on both IHC as well as Walthers cars and replace with the ones you described which would actually touch each other all the time?

That would be very interesting to me from a 'prototypical' appearance perspective.

Jack, regarding your question about body mounted couplers on long passenger cars, I am far from an expert as you can tell ... so others such as Jim, Sheldon, et al, can help. However, in my case, yes, I remove all truck mounted couplers/shanks (snipping them off with a sprue cutter or sharp wire cutter) and mount #5 Kadee or 'dummy knuckle couplers' in #5  Kadee coupler draft boxes. I think the exact positioning of the coupler draft boxes would have to do with your radius. Mine is generally between 30-36" which is pretty forgiving.

However, here I must 'defer' to advice given to you from 'experts' on the forum.

lanny nicolet

[Atlantic Central]

Jack,

Yes, this is all refering to body mounted couplers. Truck mounted couplers are an inexpensive solution used by the  manufacturers to run longer cars around sharper curves, but are very bad for long trains and backing up. Most modelers concerned with good performance of long trains and/or correct prototype appearance body mount all their couplers just like the real thing.

Lanny,

Yes, you are understanding correctly. Here are some more details.

Actually I made a slight error in my previous post. I use Kadee #36, but #26 is the same actual coupler, but just supplied with a different coupler box and accessories. Either will work depending on the car, as you will read below.

A #26, #36, or #46 is just like a #5, just longer. They all have the same shank design and will work in all the various Kadee coupler boxes The #26 comes with the same box as a #5 and a talgo adapter for old TYCO/Mantua trucks.

The #36 comes with a special close clearance box and spring that does not project inward on the car very far. That is why I use that one mostly to keep the coupler box clear of the trucks.

Both the #20 and #30 series couplers are made of a very hard plastic, not like any of the generic couplers. The 40 series couplers are metal like the #5 and come with the same box and spring as the #5.

Since the shank is longer, and the goal is to couple the cars closer, you must slide the coupler further toward the center of the car. This is why the close clearance box of the #36 is sometines necessary to clear the truck swing. This will very from car to car.

The American Limited diaphragms come with instructions on car spacing. If you get that spacing correct, your couplers have enough swing, and they have long enough shanks to stop the distance between the cars from closing up on curves (which again is the reason for the #36 rather than a #5), the diaphrams will just touch on straight track when pulled, they will compress slightly when backing and they will flex and stay in contact on curves easily down to the 26" radius range with no binding or derailments.

Like I said above, I have run full length cars with this setup through an
Atlas #4 corssover!

Lanny, do you have access to a fax machine? I have a four page instruction sheet on this including a drawing showing the correct coupler position. I did a clinic on this for our local group a few years ago. I can post the instructions over the web, but my success with scaning these drawings has not been good. Contact me off list if you would like me to fax or send you a copy.

Sheldon

[jsmvmd]

Dear Friends,

This is a "gem" thread.  A trove of great information which I will archive to use as needed.

In your opinion, our LHS has the Bachmann Pennsylvania heavy weight passenger cars, 4 car set, not sure if they are pre or post-WWII, for $89.00.

Should I jump on this or are there significantly better prices out there?

Don't mean to hijack a thread, just a thought...

Best Wishes, Jack

[Atlantic Central]

Jack, thats not a bad price, but Trainworld has them for $69.00.

All the technics I have discribed work great on Bachmann heavy weights as well. For them, remove the rubber diaphragm and the swivel coupler pocket. Install the American Limited diaphragms and use #36 Kadee's with a new mounting hole to get the correct car spacing.

Sheldon

[jsmvmd]

Dear Sheldon,

Thank you for ALL the good advice over the years. Especially these particular mods. Will eventually get the cars and do said modifications.  Good luck to all!

Best, Jack