The Pennsylvania Railroad K4

[FECfan]

Ok, I want to know all i can on item 84113, the k4 pre-war dcc-ready. how is the quality? can it pull 7 athearn passenger cars (with weights installed) without a problem (aka slippage)? mechanical problems that are brought up with other items that the k4 never seems to have, are there any? about how fast (in scale mph) can it get up to? give me every good AND bad detail you can come up with, i have a light-mountain that i love, and another spectrum would be an excellent addition, so i want to know all i can before making the purchase

[CAB_IV]

I'll probably be shot for making more assumptions.  I don't own these locomotives or those cars,   but i do have a similar problem.

I had a bunch of Atlas AEM7 electrics and i was trying to pull an 8 car train.  Its essentially the same story. 

What i would do, is

1.) buy bull frog snot.  this stuff will definitely improve the performance.  I've already experimented and tested it for two weeks now, and it seems friendly and safe

2.) I'd absolutely make sure your passenger cars are tuned up.   The walthers Comets (Horizons) wouldn't even roll down a 4% grade if you pushed it down.   I went in and modified the trucks, and made sure everything spins smoothly.   



Assuming the K-4 doesn't have any weight issues,  you should be able to handle that 7 car consist if you do this.  I say go for your K-4.

[Jim Banner]

In spite of its unfortunate name, Bullfrog Snot may be more than just BS.  If you like traction tires, that is.

I can see at least two of the usual problems with traction tires occurring -
(1) reduced pickup  giving reduced performance or increasing your track cleaning requirements, and
(2) more traction than the locomotive was designed to handle.  More traction, whether it comes from more weight or a higher coefficient of friction, can put more load on the motor and more load on the decoder driving the motor.  I would suggest careful monitoring of motor and decoder temperatures if you use BS to pull more cars up steeper grades.  Watching your headlights will give you a quick idea of the amount of pickup you are losing - no flicker, no loss would be ideal.

A third problem with traction tires is that they wear out.  Perhaps someone with more than two weeks experience with BS will comment on how long it lasts.  The ad for BS portrays it as easy to install, which would certainly be helpful if BS was shorter lived than regular traction tires.

Personally, I will stick with adding more motive power to get long trains up heavy grades because that is the same solution the 12" to the foot guys, use, not because I see any problems with BS.

Jim

[CAB_IV]

(1) reduced pickup  giving reduced performance or increasing your track cleaning requirements

Yeah, it does reduce pick up, but we're talking about an locomotive that has 6 axles in the loco, and another 4 in the tender.  One driver set will not cause a major loss of power pick up.   Some diesels get by on less. It doesn't seem to leave a residue or make track dirtier, and i'm told by others that they also had no problems in that department.

(2) more traction than the locomotive was designed to handle.  More traction, whether it comes from more weight or a higher coefficient of friction, can put more load on the motor and more load on the decoder driving the motor.  I would suggest careful monitoring of motor and decoder temperatures if you use BS to pull more cars up steeper grades.  Watching your headlights will give you a quick idea of the amount of pickup you are losing - no flicker, no loss would be ideal.

From my experience, the bullfrog snot isn't a super-traction tire.  a heavy train will still slip up hill.  Besides,  unless someone puts an unreasonable load on the train, i can't see it causing any trouble.   7 passenger cars should be within that range.   I have expirienced no piuckup problems as a result of adding bullfrog snot to various pieces of equipment like the AEM7, E44, E60, Challenger (Lionel), HHP-8,  and other lightweight/passenger engines that need it.

A third problem with traction tires is that they wear out.  Perhaps someone with more than two weeks experience with BS will comment on how long it lasts.  The ad for BS portrays it as easy to install, which would certainly be helpful if BS was shorter lived than regular traction tires.

Yeah, i might have only had it two weeks, but ther is an amry of people who've had it for a year now, and the general consesus is that it sticks for atleast 6 months before it starts smoothing over.  I can tell you,if you want to take it off, you pretty much just need a exacto knife or a flat screwdiver. it pretty much peels right off.   It works by shrinking onto the wheel, its not sticky, but it does conforme to the wheel.  it takes about a minute or two to clean it off your average wheel set.

the bottle has so much bullfrog snot, and you only ever use a drop at a time, that you won't run out anytime soon either.

Personally, I will stick with adding more motive power to get long trains up heavy grades because that is the same solution the 12" to the foot guys, use, not because I see any problems with BS.

Jim

yeah, but when your 4-6-6-4 can't pull more than a few 40' boxcars up a hill, something needs to be done about that.  I can't keep adding more chanllengers until it works, lol. sometimes all a train needs is some grip.

[FECfan]

ok, i don't want to go into detail about the bullfrog... whatever it is, im not putting stuff on my steam locos that it wasnt built for, i have a USRA light mountain that has no problem with 9 cars, so im just gonna guess the K4 shouldnt have a problem

[Stephen D. Richards]

I have a Spectrum post war K4 and it does just fine with that size train.    Stephen

[Atlantic Central]

CAB_IV and FECfan,

How steep are your grades?

Grades effect pulling power in about the same way they do the prototype.

A real K4 would not pull much up a 3-4% grade, niether will the model.

Sheldon

[Hellhound]

I avoid locomotives with traction tires whenever possible. Those are a big headache. The tire will stretch and spin off the wheel or break. They will cause erratic operation due to poor electrical contact on the rubber tired wheels. Rubber drive tires are just a quick and dirty fix for a locomotive that is too light to get good traction. Since there is no local hobby shop in my area I buy most of my model railroad equipment from online stores. I have gotten a couple of locos with traction tires. I will change the wheels and add weight to these models whenever possible. If a locomotive stalls I either shorten the train or do what the full scale railroaders do and add more motive power.
  As for "more traction than a locomotive was designed to handle" ...Keep in mind that the drive trains consist of plastic gears, they aren't metal anymore. ...I once managed to overload an older Athearn GP35 locomotive to the point that one of the trucks broke loose from the frame.   

[CAB_IV]

ok, i don't want to go into detail about the bullfrog... whatever it is, im not putting stuff on my steam locos that it wasnt built for

what? that stuff was made for models trains, specifically N-scale and steam locomotives, because neither have good traction due to size and weight distribution.

it is essentially an air drying plastic.  they just call it that because its green and goopy in the jar.

CAB_IV and FECfan,

How steep are your grades?

unreasonably steep in my case, lol.    my club layout ended up with what they tell me is a 4 percent grade for roughly 8 feet. it was a construction mistake that happened a long time ago in the 1980s.  I was just giving advice for what worked for me.   

I avoid locomotives with traction tires whenever possible. Those are a big headache. The tire will stretch and spin off the wheel or break.

the bullfrog snot goes on as a liquid, and shrinks into the wheel as it dries. while it easy enough to scrape off, it doesn't pull off just from running, it only eventually gets smoothed over.   Because it does shrink into  a VERY THIN film, you don't get the bump issues.

They will cause erratic operation due to poor electrical contact on the rubber tired wheels. Rubber drive tires are just a quick and dirty fix for a locomotive that is too light to get good traction.

There is no rubber in bullfrog snot. while it will reduce electrical contact, you only need it on one wheelset.   that one axle isn't goingt to make a real difference, especially on a steam engines that pickes up from multiple wheelsets in the loco and tender and over a long wheelbase.

say "too light to get traction" to my challanger.  its to heavy, it just slips, mostly bexcause all the weight is distributed over all those axles. this is is a good way to solve that problem.

I will change the wheels and add weight to these models whenever possible. If a locomotive stalls I either shorten the train or do what the full scale railroaders do and add more motive power.

sometimes, an engine actually is just underweight, and there isn't always a lot of things you can do to increase weight.  very small locomotives, or very old ones where the mechanism fills the shell,  often cannot take the addition of more weight.  In the case of many of the commuter engines i have, they wouldn't be double headed just to pull an 8 car train on straight and level track.   adding another to pull the train is kind ridiculous and unporototypical.    Sure, if you're ruynning some big freight drag in the moutains, an extra locomotive doesn't look out of place, but there are times where you can't just lash an extra engine up.


 

As for "more traction than a locomotive was designed to handle" ...Keep in mind that the drive trains consist of plastic gears, they aren't metal anymore. ...I once managed to overload an older Athearn GP35 locomotive to the point that one of the trucks broke loose from the frame.   

that sounds crazy, but i think if you just want to add more cars (within reason) to a train, the bullfrog snot is not a bad way to go.   Going back to the AEM7 electrics from atlas,  they have all the same drive components that the Six Axle Atlas locomotives do, except the motor is turned on its side and it has a small wheel base /large wheels.     there is no reason the gears on this train are not capable of handling the extra 2-3 cars i'm adding to this train, especially considering i have an Atlas U34CH that can already handle that train, and once again, it has all the same parts.


besides, unlike rubber,  the bullfrog snot shrinks to the wheels (so it won't pull off), and itWILL slip if there is a heavy train.  it doesn't grip as well as rubber does, but i doubt you'll be burning up locomotives.


don't knock the snot until you try it.   you all seem VERY stuck in the old stereotypes of traction tires, and this is something very new.   it does not work or behave the same way rubber tires do.

[FECfan]

forget it, you people are no help, i wanted info from someone that has the product (or a similar item), and i got it (thanks Stephen), i am going to lock the topic now