Need Advice on Brass Locos

[jonathan]

I went to an old. established LHS today.  The manager knows I'm a B&O fan.  He took me back to a display case, where he had two 4-6-4's, painted and decorated in B&O blue.  They are brass and the asking price is $300 each.

I know nothing of brass, other than it seems to be the holy grail of locomotivedom from what I've read and seen advertised.  I didn't even know what to ask.  They were certainly attractive, painted nicely, and seemed clean.  There was no coal load in the tender (painted a light red on the inside walls.

Before I even consider spending a small fortune on such a locomotive, what do I need to know?  Should there be some kind of authentication paperwork?  How do I tell if the motor and moving parts are good quality?  Are there markings on the shell or tender to tell me where this thing came from?  Perhaps there is some sort of manual or book on Brass Model Locomotives?

Don't want to get my hopes up or start drooling over a new model if it's not worth it.  So any sound wisdom any one of you could pass, would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks a million

Jonathan

[NWsteam]

Ask who they are made by and what kind of motor they have. If they have a can motor, things are looking good, if it's an open motor I would be very careful. Ask to see them run! Also ask who did the paint job. Was it professionally done or a homemade job?

-Brad

[Chris350]

I believe there is a (probably more than one) collectors listing that should help establish Fair Market Value for brass locos.  I've seen them listed by Dan's Trains out of Florida. 

[CAB_IV]

I don't want to get my hopes up or start drooling over a new model if it's not worth it.  So any sound wisdom any one of you could pass, would certainly be appreciated.

Thanks a million

Jonathan

first up, i'd make sure the B&O had these engines.  The B&O only had 4 Hudson steam locomotives, and each was built with very differently as far as drivers sizes and other details go.  they don't stand in well for eachother.  If they are both the same  model, you should only buy one, unless you plan to resell the other. 


B&O Hudson Page- http://www.steamlocomotive.com/hudson/bo.shtml


photos of some of the B&O hudsons can be found here- http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam7.html

[jonathan]

CAB_IV,

Thanks for the link to the photos.  After looking through some of the photos, I believe what I actually saw at the store was a 4-6-2 Light Pacific, probably one of the presidential versions.  I'll have to go back the the store, count wheels, and ask a lot more questions.

Thanks for the advice, guys.  I'll have to do some studying, before I get even a little excited about these two locos.  Still wondering, a little, why brass is so sought after.  They didn't look any different than a Spectrum steamer, or any other comparable plastic model.  They were nice, but why is brass so cool?

Thanks again,

Jonathan

[pdlethbridge]

If you don't plan on hooking up with DCC, then a working open frame motor would be okay. I have a open frame motor in my bowser usra mike that is set up for DCC, both brushes are insulated from the motor. Brass is nice if you are getting something that is rare for the railroad like what my brother got this week. 2 Brass B&M 2-10-2's and a B&M R1D 4-8-2. All are factory painted and have can motors and holes in the tender floor for sound. Who makes B&M steam? Not a whole bunch. Mostly N&W and UP

[hotrainlover]

pdlethbridge,
Your brother just spent a small fortune...  You need to show him your Christmas list...NOW!!

[jward]

brass locomotives used to be the best detailed models on the market. i don't think that is the case anymore, not with broadway limited and others making the superdetailed locomotives they do. but brass locomotives are also very limited production items. that makes them ideal for producing locomotives that were rare and unusual in the real world, which might have a limited market. this would be especially true of steam locomotives, which were custom designed for each railroad.

UP and N&W steamers are produced in plastic probably because many are familiar with them. they ran in excursion service long after most lines had scrapped their steam. on the other hand, B&M or saycentral of georgia steam is not as well known, and would have a much smaller market.

i own two brass locomotives, an alco rs27 and an alco t6. both were bought at a good price, and were models that were unavailable in plastic when i bought them. the rs27 has since been done by proto 2000, but the t6 is still a brass only item.....

[Chris350]

They were nice, but why is brass so cool?

The "cool" factor is based as said above on the uniqueness of the engine being modeled, the unavailability of any other model of the type, and finally because they are all 100% hand built.  The hand built part being the the real draw.  Each model then becomes unique unto itself, somewhat like the prototype.  Add in the limited availability, as after a model run was completed, they were rarely made again by that builder.  As you research, remember the name on the box is the importer not necessarily the builder.  I noticed that once a brass model is painted, no matter how professionally, the detailing often becomes less apparent.  With BLI and MTH building their highly detailed diecast and plastic models, brass is getting a challenge for it's value.  There are still some road specific models I would love to have in brass, but a working class Mountain, or GS- for example, falls down my list quickly.  To me brass is where I go for unique engines like the Southern Pacific shop switchers, 0-6-0's and 0-8-0's

[pdlethbridge]

You'll find that a lot of brass engines still come with open frame motors, but  a lot of the newer ones are DCC ready, that is can motors, speaker holes, etc. But a lot of work still needs to be done to really convert them. The B&M 2-10-2's need lights front and rear and a decoder with associated wiring
Considering their cost, they may only be able to be run on DC and, if converted to DCC, consider how much of your time your willing to spend on converting it.
Case in point, I have had my Brothers brass Olympia B&M R1D for several months trying to solve tracking problems and decoder problems. It had been custom painted and worked on by our hobby shop for many, many months. It came home and sat on a siding because it wouldn't run all the way around the layout. It went back to the HS twice with the same results. I've had more success, and my brother should have a good operating loco in a couple of weeks. But it took a lot of time.
Most brass engines are not made for tight turns or #4 turnouts. They are finicky and delicate and should be handled carefully. When they make them, they don't make a lot of them and you may see differences in the same run and quality could suffer.

[CAB_IV]

CAB_IV,

Thanks for the link to the photos.  After looking through some of the photos, I believe what I actually saw at the store was a 4-6-2 Light Pacific, probably one of the presidential versions.  I'll have to go back the the store, count wheels, and ask a lot more questions.

You might have saw the first B&O Hudson, Class V-1.   This Hudson as actually built from a B&O P-class (a 4-6-2 Pacific steamer), but with a larger firebox (requiring the extra trailing axle).  They would look similar as a result.

Thanks for the advice, guys.  I'll have to do some studying, before I get even a little excited about these two locos.  Still wondering, a little, why brass is so sought after.  They didn't look any different than a Spectrum steamer, or any other comparable plastic model.  They were nice, but why is brass so cool?

Thanks again,

Jonathan

I own some brass equipment, notably 1 E44 and 3 E44A electrics and a pair of PRR Silverliner II EMUs.    Its not so much that brass is cool, as it is that:

1.) Brass is the only place you'll find most of the oddball equiment (like the E44As), and when it comes to steam locomotives, brass is one of the only places you'll find a turly accurate mdoel.   Many Models of steam engines are generic stand ins. In real life, steam engines often were very different between to individuals of the same class, and every railroad had their own version of a 4-6-4 or 2-8-2, and they were so different that unlike diesels, you couldn't juse swap the horn or add a ditchlight to get the right look.   If you really want a specific model that is accurate down to the rivest, brass is the only way to go.

2.) Brass can be seen as a statment of modeling "power".   Brass isn't cheap, and many modelers liek to have a source of pride.  Few thigns ar as satisfying as having something unique that people ask "Where did you get that?" or "how much would you want for it?"

[jonathan]

I certainly appreciate all the tips on brass locos.  I think that will become a "someday" project for now.  I keep thinking for that kind of cash, I could go to a trains show, and find and nice Spectrum Connie, 4-6-0, or 4-4-0 modern, with DCC and Sound.  I feel more comfortable getting something I know will perform well, and look great at the same time.

I'm considering joining an MR club as well.  Really want to have something I know will run on the club layout (DCC), and pull all the great B&O equipment I'm collecting.

Brass will certainly stay on my list of must haves "someday".

Thanks again,

Jonathan

[CAB_IV]

I certainly appreciate all the tips on brass locos.  I think that will become a "someday" project for now.  I keep thinking for that kind of cash, I could go to a trains show, and find and nice Spectrum Connie, 4-6-0, or 4-4-0 modern, with DCC and Sound.  I feel more comfortable getting something I know will perform well, and look great at the same time.

I'm considering joining an MR club as well.  Really want to have something I know will run on the club layout (DCC), and pull all the great B&O equipment I'm collecting.

Brass will certainly stay on my list of must haves "someday".

Thanks again,

Jonathan

yeah, that is half the battle. There are a couple thigns i've bought that i looked back and said, "i could have bought  so much more with that money," but you have to look at it this way.  thigns in modelrailroading are fleeting.   Brass is generally run in samll runs, and people literally snatch it up, and they sit  in collections.   The only reason i got some of my equipment is because the previous owner passed.  otherwise, it would have all been still sitting in a storage container.  this is the fate of most brass.


if its a steam engine  that you REALLY want to be part of your roster, i'd grab it, because their is NO guarantee it will still be there the next time you look.  In fact, some things you might never see see again, period.   I saw a brass U34CH once on Ebay, and thought i might come across it another day.   that was the only time i've ever seen or heard of one, and that was 5 years ago.

It really is a balance, and its up to you.   Just keep that in mind.

[jward]

the u34ch was a u36c with provisions for a hep generator for train heating and lighting that in effect derated the horsepower avaialbe for traction. as such, it could be modelled with an atlas u36c, and as i recall they actually made some painted for nj transit.

[CAB_IV]

the u34ch was a u36c with provisions for a hep generator for train heating and lighting that in effect derated the horsepower avaialbe for traction. as such, it could be modelled with an atlas u36c, and as i recall they actually made some painted for nj transit.

Actually, the u34CH PRE-DATES the U36C.  Its really a U33C with a larger diesel to account for the HEP.   at that point, GE made the logical step of saying "hey, lets loose the HEP and sell it to freight railroads".   

It can be argued that they would have put the larger engine on their standard U-boat frame anyway,  but regardless, the U34CH came first.

as for modeling the U34CH, its not as easy as it looks.  While atlas DID sell a couple U-boats in the U34CH scheme (i have three),  they are just stand ins.

you would need to remove the dynamic break screens behind the cab,  get a new horn (that they don't really make) and install it in the proper location,   remove the bell and make it under-frame mounted, and scratch build an accurate nose marker (incredibly difficult/irritating to do, since there is no aftermarket part for this).

true, its not to hard, i've done it before, but it will never have the detail of the brass one.   

anyway, the point is you can't find that stuff.   Same with my E44As.  I've never seen any E44A models by alpha before i bought mine, and i still have never seen one, and only heard one other person say they saw one.  everyone else was clueless.

if i didn't grab them, I'd have no E44 (and trust me, you can't make an E44 from an E33.  it won't ever come out right).