Questions on how to add Logging and How to add coaling to a layout?

[Robertj668]

Hi folks

I feel that this is a dumb question but I do not know how to do this.

My son wants to model a logging industry and a coaling industry to our layout.  I am doing some research on the web and know that there are books out there and I will probably buy them eventually.  But this message board has always have given me great advice. My railroad is going to be mainly transition era with a modern flair.  The modern flair is because I love the Amtrack engines a lot a want to run them as well.  What we will do is run modern and then run Transition era separately.

Scale is HO
we are running on a DCC System.

Logging industry
What types of engines do I need?
What type of cars do I need?
What buildings do I need?

Coaling industry
What types of engines do I need?
What type of cars do I need?
What buildings do I need?


Thanks for not laughing at the question, and if you did thats okay.

Robert

[NarrowMinded]

I would suggest you goggle ho layout mining and logging images I would do a search for each, when I am running out of idea's I do this. don't stop at the first few result pages though, many ggod ideas are buried deep in searches.

JJ

[Robertj668]

JJ
That's I am doing now during my breaks from from working on my power point presentations for work.  I consider it my reward. Thanks for you help.
There is a book on logging for about $20 I should buy. I have so many reference books and you can never have enough books for reference.
Robert

[jward]

i grew up railfanning the coal roads in the east. here are my general impressions of the coal roads during the 1970s......

during this era, before unit trains became big, most mining operations were relatively small and easily modelled. most mines loaded only a few cars a day. tipple buildings were constructed to fit the location, and usually not well maintained. walthers new river mining represents a large mine tipple. at the other extreme were the "truck dumps" where coal was loaded directly into the cars from dump trucks via a ramp where the truck could back right up to the car. other operations dumped the coal on the ground and loaded it by front end loaders. on most mines there was either a winch to move cars, or the track was sloped and the cars moved by releasing the hand brakes.

small yards were scattered through the coal fields, from which mine runs would depart to serve the mines. these were short local freights which usually used 4 axle power, often first generation such as gp7s or gp9s. loaded cars would be assembled into coal trains which would often have six axle locomotives such as sd45s or sd40s. they could have whatever locomotives the railroads had, except switchers. coal was too heavy for most switcher types, so and sorting of cars was usually done by road type locomotives. cab type locomotives such as f7s were usually not used in the yards or on the mine runs due to poor visibility during backup moves.

cars were an odd assortment of whatever was on hand, from 55 ton 2 bay cars up to the then modern 100 ton cars. in some areas the mine run coal was taken to a coal prep plant to be cleaned and sized. often older 55 ton cars would be in captive service between the mines and the prep plant, with the larger 70 and 100 ton cars used to transport the processed coal to market.

[Robertj668]

Jeffery
That is some very nice information.
So there would be a coal mine and then it would go to the coal yard. 
Do I need to add anything after a coal yard or would that be enough?

Thank you

Robert

[ebtnut]

With coal traffic, how and where the coal goes depends on what it's ultimate destination.  In the modern era, coal was generally divided into three types:  "Tide Coal" - coal meant for shipment overseas, which meant delivering to a major port; "Metallurgical Coal" - coal used primarily in the steel industry, most of which was converted to coke for the blast furnaces.  The third was power plant coal.  Coal could be loaded directly from the mine tipple, either as run-of-mine or it might be crushed and graded.  Run-of-mine coal often went first to a coal processing plant where it was washed, crushed and graded then re-loaded for final shipment. 

As for logging, ralroad logging in the woods was almost gone by the 1970's.  What you usually had was a rail line from a central re-load point near the cutting area where the logs were brought in by truck or Cat and loaded on flat cars for the trip to the saw mill.  At the mill, finished lumber would be shipped out in box cars or flat cars.  Most of the old woods operations with geared locos were gone by the 1960's, at the latest. 

[jward]

at the local yard, the coal would be made up into trains by destination. it would often be weighed on a scale at that point, unless it was going to a prep plant. some railroads like conrail and b&o had weigh in motion scales enroute to the destination. these scales were usually located at points where a majority of coal trains would pass. on the above examples they were on the mainline between the coalfields and the east coast. in recent years conrail installed one at shire oaks, pa which is a major yard for trains going to and from the mines.

trains using the weigh in motion scale pull slowly across the scale track at about 5 mph i believe, while the cars are weighed. in yards which have a scale track, the yard crew would push each cut of loaded cars over the scale track before sorting them by destination. on those scales, locomotives were usually not permitted due to weight, and the scale tracks had a gantlet to bypass the scale. cars were thus pushed so that the yard engine would not have to cross the scale.

some industries which used coal were small enough to model, for example beehive coke ovens or a small power plant serving a university or hospital.  other possible destinations for coal trains can be simulated by hidden staging tracks.

one final note: not all coal moved in dedicated coal trains. small shipments were moved in "blocks" and picked up by regular through freights.

[RAM]

For a small layout I would keep the coal and logging operation small.  The logging operation  could be near the mine.  It would be a siding where trucks came to load two or three cars a day.  I would use the small 2 bay hoppers.  Another coal customer would be a local coal dealer.  A small saw mill does not take up much room.

[SteamGene]

For transition era you would need some articulated steamers to run from the tipples to the yard where the trains going to either a port or a major customer were made up.  In the early 1950s C&O used H-4s and 6s as mine run locos and H-8s to move out of the mountains.  Then the train would have a K-3 or K-4 on the point.  If you really want to be authentic, don't forget the mine head house and the company town!  Coal dealers would be serviced by a local, not a unit train.  C&O and N&W used unit coal trains way back to the '40s,  probably earlier, and the other coal haulers probably did the same. 

For logging, you need smaller locos - Mantua has a nice articulate, both with a tender and as a tank loco.  Logging needs log cars. Check the Walther's catalog for ideas. 
Gene

[Jim Banner]

For a back woods logging operation in a small space, consider a fence post operation.  In the winter of 1964/65 I worked in the woods of central Alberta next to one of these pint size logging outfits.  It was an area of relatively new growth, with trees under 6" diameter, just the right size for posts for barbed wire fences in the south of the province.  The loggers would work in teams of three - two men and a horse.  One man would fell the trees, both men would limb them, and then the second man and the horse would drag several of the logs off to their camp.  There were, I believe two such teams.  I never saw their camp close up but I understand they had another fellow or two there who would cut the posts to length and stack them.  The remaining fellow at the camp was both cook and camp attendant, the most important member of the crew.

In that camp, the crew would stack their cut posts until they had a truck load, then they would take them to town to await loading onto the one train a year.  For modeling purposes, it would be better to eliminate the truck and stack the posts directly onto a flat or gondola.  From time to time, a passing train could pick up a loaded car or two and drop off an empty or two.

I went a step further on my own layout and have the post camp at the end of a branch line.  This branch line includes a switch back, which automatically limits train length to two cars plus a switcher.  To further complicate things, there is a small mine between the switch back and the post camp.  This means shuffling the mine's hoppers out of the way, via the switch back, before you can remove the loads and replace them with empties.  Then you have to return the hoppers to the mine.  This branch ends with a two car interchange track at the main.  At this point in time, the track is in place and the scenery has been roughed in, but the loading platform at the post camp has not yet been built.  However, we still use it for operating sessions.  Surprisingly, nobody want to take that job.  When they do, they usually start off feeling it is a nothing job compared to switching a town or running a through freight.  They soon find out that they have to work quickly and accurately to keep up with the rest of the railway.  If not, they start getting cars backed up and end up using the main for car storage.  Now THAT is something that gets a road crew upset - popping out of a tunnel and finding a couple of cars blocking the main.  As likely as not, those cars end up in the next town while the hogger on the branch is left scratching his head.

Anyway, this could be a solution where you just have to have a logging operation and there just isn't any room for it.

Jim

[Robertj668]

Thanks guys I appreciate the great input.  may post this in the near future of what Engines, cars and buildings I am interested in.  I have given up on being accurate to a certain era. There are too many things from different eras that we like.

So here is my story. A rich nostalgic business man wanted to start a logging company but he wanted to operate with a steam engine.  Now the same guy also will also own the coaling company.

Gene
The main reason for the industries i wanted to do was because of the engines.  I love them.  Thank you for some great info.  I copy and pasted it to save for my planning which my son and I are doing.  No rush.  I love to have fun, go to the Hobby Shop and spend time with my son.

Jim
As always I look forward to your input. I also copy and pasted the info for future reference.  I think I have asked this but do you have any pictures? 

Thank you

Robert

PS My 6yr old son is  reading everything I am typing.  He was curious to what I was doing. I told him and he wanted me to say thank you for the help and Hello.

[SteamGene]

Just in case - on the C&O a K-3 was a heavy Mikado - but not a USRA heavy Mike.  The K-4 was a Kanawha, a 2-8-4. 
All of the H's except for the 7 and 8 were 2-6-6-2s, all about the same size. 
Gene

[Robertj668]

Gene

Thanks for the info. I am still learning my steam engines.  I sat at the screen and said "H's"  oh yes H Class.  I have a few reference books and Web sites I use to help me learn about the engines. 

Robert

[RAM]

Most people when they think of coal mining and lumber operations, think of mountains.  This is true for mining in the eastern part of the U.S., and west coast for lumber.  How ever much of the midwest is flat land mining as well as lumber.  The east coast from New Jersey south is flat, however much of it is lumber country.  Pulp wood and paper mills.  Here in Oklahoma we have a lot of lumber and coal mining.  Most of the coal mining is small operation with trucks bringing in the coal to be loaded into hopper cars.  So you don't need big steam locomotives, unless you want them.  There was a line in Missouri that used three 2-6-0s.  Other lines used 2-8-0s. 

[Robertj668]

RAM

I am looking for a small little operation for both.  The B&O Railroad museum had a beautiful but small example of the lumber operation I wanted to do.

Thanks RAM

Robert